Epic Failure

[mark_asphodel]

 Taking a break from the "Bad Fanfiction" series... which has generated all kinds of fantastic discussion (y'all are awesome).

So, sacae  posted "If you had to write an "epic" (200k-500k) fanfiction about a group/groups of characters (any fandom, any characters), who would you choose to write about and why?" 

A prequel to The Alienist about the adventures of Kreizler, Moore, and Roosevelt during their university days.  

Uh... 

Oh yes.  I write for Fire Emblem.

Ideally, I'd do exactly what I mentioned doing on Manna's journal: "a serious take on the War of Heroes as enacted by adults without the anime shenanigans," wherein the politics and religion all made some kind of meaningful sense.

I do believe that the core story of said War of Heroes (FE3 Book II / FE12) is one of the best storylines in Fire Emblem (yes, Seisen is the end-all be-all of everything, and I've seen a strong case made for the storyline of Radiant Dawn), in part because it starts as a purely political story.  It's not another case of "OMG we've been attacked"-- your team of "good guys" starts out doing some pretty dodgy work in another country at the request of the person who turns out to be the Big Bad.  It's a taste of some of the complexities of Seisen; Hardin is banking on his knowledge of Marth, pushing Marth into one uncomfortable situation after another, upping the ante until Marth bucks his orders... which gives Hardin the pretext to invade Altea and declare Marth as Public Enemy Number One.  At the core of it is, allegedly, a friendship and working relationship gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Unfortunately, the feel for that end of the storyline gets lost once the supernatural component kicks in.  Not that the supernatural component is unwelcome, as the "dragon angle" turns out to be what makes the Archanea universe so very compelling.  I tend to think that the actual point of the whole Archanea dog-and-pony show is actually the preservation of Tiki, not the question of who's married to whom, or who rules the continent.  That's all Gotoh cares about, in any event, and he's as close to Voice of God as this universe gets.  

So we have a very good supernatural/religious plotline, and a very good political story, and while they don't mesh seamlessly the combination makes the War of Heroes both extremely compelling and an excellent place to deploy fan-theories, suppositions, and crack.  Now, what binds these two storylines together is the Gharnef/Medeus package deal, which IMO is the weak point of the story.  Incredibly significant, and the source of some really memorable material, but... well, hell, didn't we just kill these guys a couple of years ago?  FE12 apparently lends some depth to Gharnef beyond "butthurt and seeking revenge," but I frankly liked him better during the War of Darkness, wherein it was apparent he was planning to leave Medeus hanging and rule the continent all by his little twisted self.  And Medeus gets an awesome backstory but nothing to really do except pop up from his hole, make threats, and die.  Again.


But yeah, if I had infinite time to bang away at Fire Emblem and an audience that would give a damn, I'd want to give the War of Heroes a full-on serious treatment.  Doing so, though, runs right into some serious problems.  For one, if the key is to write a consistent, plausible take on the characters and their motivations, that means picking one characterization out of the possible options and sticking with it for 200K-500K words.  Think that's easy?  Not if you want the whole shebang to make any sense.

Take Our Hero.  Marth's characterization over the years has been anything but consistent.  He's saddled with the dual roles of being a inspirational/spiritual figure AND a political/military leader... well, let's just say later games didn't make that mistake.  Imagine Eirika and L'Arachel melded into one character.  Better yet, don't.  So for a prose treatment of the game, you have at least three clear options:

1) Messiah!Marth.  A naive, childlike (or childish) redemptive figure, come to lead Archanea out of the darkness that generations of wicked adults brought upon it.  Pure-heared, trusting, loving, forgiving... and quite possibly immune to the corruption of the world, barring a BSOD breakdown.  Pros of taking this route include a) why Gotoh trusts Marth and b) why Marth's father Cornelius was apparently not Good Enough to win the favor of the "gods."  [Archanea canon makes clear that higher powers are orchestrating this whole fiasco.  This CANNOT be ignored in interpreting canon.]  Cons of this would include that Marth is not going to be able to lace his damned boots, much less lead an army, without major, major props from the supporting cast.  

2) Hero!Marth.  A politically-clued in adult figure, whose ideals and behavior are at least marginally better than the prevailing standard but who is not so special as to be incorruptible.  Pros of this would include showing Marth as being capable of dealing with the massive political burden he's shouldering by the end of the war.  Cons of this would be that, well, if he's not So Incredibly Special, why is there insistence on making him, er, Special?

3) Hypocrite!Marth.  As in, someone whose "grand ideals" simply do not jive with the things he's actually doing.  Pros of this include reconciling #1 and #2 above, to some extent.  Cons of this are... well, we could hit darkfic territory in a hurry going that route.

And you can do interesting things with these that make something more than a regurgitation of the script in prose form.  Messiah!Marth might be aided by a MyUnit figure-- instead of a cardboard MyUnit, how about a savvy operator, a spy or assassin, someone who really is pulling strings from the "shadows" to help the cause?  Hero!Marth might have acquired his reputation for holiness after the fact; rather than winning because he was Special, he's remembered as Special because he won and his followers wrote the history books.  Hypocrite!Marth (and I got this idea from FE12!Gharnef, fwiw) could be utilized in any number of ways-- he might be a well-intentioned person with a blind spot, he might be as self-righteous and ambitious as Hardin's propaganda paints him, or he might be flat-out delusional. 

Hardin, Our Antagonist, offers similar problems-- is he a good (or great) man, a genuine friend whose real sin is not envy or wrath but acedia, which leaves him prey to the Darksphere's influence?  Or a man and leader who really is corroded from within by resentment of a much younger rival?  Is he aware of the influence of the Darksphere and fighting against it (canon indicates yes, IMO)?  If so, how much is he willing or able to fight?

Obviously, the tone of the "epic fic" would change dramatically depending on which "Marth" and which "Hardin" are used.  If Marth is squeaky-clean and Hardin hates his guts, it's going to be a different story from one where Marth's a suspect individual with a shiny reputation and Hardin hates his guts.  And whatever the author (okay, I) chose from the outset of the story, it would have to be sustained for the full length of the epic... regardless of the pitfalls.

That's a shit-ton of work for a story maybe two people would read, and we haven't even touched the dragon plotline yet!

PS- I just realized I don't have a "Marth" tag for this journal.  Basically, if it's about Fire Emblem, it's about Marth in some way, shape, or form.

Comments

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Hero!Marth might have acquired his reputation for holiness after the fact; rather than winning because he was Special, he's remembered as Special because he won and his followers wrote the history books.

Y'know, I actually like this. Marth is clearly a Good Person, and I like heroes who can attain victory without sacrificing a part of their souls in order to do so. But being a leader DOES require an understanding of certain things.

As for why Marth was Chosen By The Gods, maybe it didn't have to do with purity so much as it had to do with unselfish motivations? Even if he wasn't a Pure Hero, Marth still had some rather pure motivations-saving his sister, stopping an evil sorcerer and corrupted Earth Dragon prince from ruining the world. Even without the incorruptible pure pureness, he's still clearly a good guy and maybe that was enough.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

But being a leader DOES require an understanding of certain things.

Yeah. That's why I don't like the "naive" portrayal of Marth, as it makes him little more than a pretty figurehead. If that's all he is, why should any of the other characters cede authority to him? Seriously, why not have George and Linde marry and become the new rulers of Archanea?

he's still clearly a good guy and maybe that was enough.

I dunno. If that's enough, then is raises the question of why Hardin's years (more than a decade!) of being a good guy counted for so little. Camus wasn't exactly operating out selfish desires, either-- not when he was loyally serving Ludwik, anyway. There is certainly some element of selfishness in why he saved Nyna, but... I dunno. The question just kind of folds back on itself as to where the line in the sand is.

[Hm. Maybe what sets Marth apart is that he didn't want to bang Nyna, and Nyna is the root of all evil.]

Also, FE11!Marth had explicitly impure motivations. He wanted revenge. And he NEVER actually renounces it. It's implied, but his last actual statement on the matter is "No, I still hate them."

:/

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

I don't mind the naievete, but I would imagine that after having been through one war, it would've worn off by the time the second one rolled around.

Hmm, good point. But Hardin was somewhat easy to seduce over to the dark side, while Camus was a blatant case of "my country right or wrong". Marth was just doing what he needed to do...I like to imagine he was somewhat like Celice in regards to being thrust into this Special Hero role, all unsure and nervous but still willing to do whatever he had to do.

Also, FE11!Marth had explicitly impure motivations. He wanted revenge. And he NEVER actually renounces it. It's implied, but his last actual statement on the matter is "No, I still hate them."

Then why would Gato single him out as special?

If Marth isn't completely pure, then I guess it's because he's Anri's descendant. But so was Cornelius, right? So how was he not strong enough where Marth was? (Maybe I oughta just chalk that up to FE having a fetish for dead fathers.)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

but I would imagine that after having been through one war, it would've worn off by the time the second one rolled around.

Well, that's one of the main things that doesn't make any sense. Why does he come across as more pragmatic and clued-in during War of Darkness and less so during War of Heroes?

Marth was just doing what he needed to do

I think this is where they were going with FE11 in large part. That's part of what makes him interesting, to me-- he's taken that mindset so far by the end of the game ("I don't see what my wants have to do with anything").

Then why would Gato single him out as special?

Beats me. I guess we're supposed to pick up on the implications that Marth has abandoned the whole revenge business and just roll with that? Or Gotoh is simply really pleased with Marth's obedience and willingness to run fetch-quests. Given Gotoh's overall dirt-low opinion of humanity, that might be all it comes down to. :/

So how was he not strong enough where Marth was?

That's what I want to know, really. In terms of FE3 alone, I think it made sense-- Marth is singled out as being "different" again and again. But in light of 11 & 12? No sense making.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Well, that's one of the main things that doesn't make any sense. Why does he come across as more pragmatic and clued-in during War of Darkness and less so during War of Heroes?

...y'know, I never noticed that. But you're right, it doesn't make any sense. Maybe they did it so as not to confuse anyone who chose to start with Book 2? Not a very good excuse, but still.

Overall I have no major personal beef with FE3!Marth as a character, I'm just content to blame it on the writers not really thinking things through. :/

Beats me. I guess we're supposed to pick up on the implications that Marth has abandoned the whole revenge business and just roll with that? Or Gotoh is simply really pleased with Marth's obedience and willingness to run fetch-quests. Given Gotoh's overall dirt-low opinion of humanity, that might be all it comes down to. :/

Sadly, that actually makes a lot of sense. :/ You mentioned below that his main goal was to protect Chiki, and Marth was a means to an end.

Definitely. Until we somehow get a concrete answer I'm just going to chalk it up to FE having a fetish for dead dads. Even if Marth's was the first.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Overall I have no major personal beef with FE3!Marth as a character, I'm just content to blame it on the writers not really thinking things through. :/

Well, FE3!Marth is not a "type" of character I like (and he does not come off well next to Alm, Cellica, or Sigurd, IMO), but taken by himself he does make sense, at least from the religious-messiah angle. He makes sense as the redeemer of a horribly corrupt world. It's when you lay down FE11 next to FE3, and then throw in FE12, that it all dissolves into WTF. :/

I'm just going to chalk it up to FE having a fetish for dead dads.

Heh!

Well, they did kill his parents before the whole War of Heroes plotline was invented, so to a certain extent, they must've been making things up as they went along. But the remakes should've offered the opportunity to FIX that, not to make things more confusing.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

*nod* That's where we differ, I guess. XD I've got a major soft spot for "pure" seeming heroes...of course, I do prefer them to have their flaws as well. Marth, in any incarnation, has Issues, and it seems more like FE3 kinda glossed them over with more primitive storytelling? From what I read of FE11's script, he seems to suffer the effects of exile, losing his family and Gra's betrayal more overtly.

What exactly did they do to Marth in FE12?

Well, they did kill his parents before the whole War of Heroes plotline was invented, so to a certain extent, they must've been making things up as they went along. But the remakes should've offered the opportunity to FIX that, not to make things more confusing.

Like I said, primitive storytelling. Not that FE3 had a bad story, but the writers clearly didn't think some things through.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

and it seems more like FE3 kinda glossed them over with more primitive storytelling?

My major problem with FE3!Marth is that he doesn't seem to know much about the world he's expected to govern. FE11 cured this-- he doesn't ask a lot of silly questions, and when somebody info-dumps at him, he's capable of an intelligent response. And in FE12, it looks as though MyUnit is there to ask the silly questions, so IS apparently realized that this was a weak point in his characterization.

HOWEVER...

What exactly did they do to Marth in FE12?

I'd ask you to just ask Jayden, as she's played it, but I think you'd get a ton of profanity. ;)

1) Take FE11!Marth. Restore his "innocence" by explaining via exposition that while he may look like a competent king on the outside, he's actually a fragile, wounded, bleeding child mentally/emotionally. [OK. This, at least, removed any doubts that the weird things in FE11 were intentional.]

2) Assign MyUnit to be his babysitter. [OK. I guess that's the premise of the game.]

3) Then have awful scenes like MyUnit telling Marth to abandon the army in Chiasmir and flee for his life, because MyUnit can handle things (Marth does so), or Marth being unable to figure out how to attack Pales, so MyUnit comes up with the sneak attack via the mountain pass. [This offended me.] Have Marth unable to make a decision without MyUnit signing off on it. Never mind that Jagen is the actual tactician.

4) Add insult to injury by making it clear that the Four Lovers go through MyUnit to get involved in the plan to save the Four Priestesses, leaving open the possibility that FE!12 Marth never figured out who Sirius is (OW) and creating the impression that even Merric can't have a word with his alleged best friend (Double OW).

5) At the end, rub salt in the wounds by having MyUnit tell Marth that he/she is heroically giving Marth all the credit for their victory. Insert dewy-eyed scene of gratitude ripped off from the CG of Lyn's farewell to the Tactician.

Basically, he's a mentally/emotionally-impaired co-dependent loser who is willing to abandon his troops on the field to save his own skin. Our Hero, ladies and gentlemen. Humanity's final hope. Looks like we're screwed.

This is simply what happens when a gameplay element (MyUnit) is allowed to stomp holes through the plot. I don't know what IS thought the effect would be, but it diminishes Marth beyond the point of having any credibility while pretending to celebrate him.

And this is why Jayden waxes profane at the very mention of Shin Monshou.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

My major problem with FE3!Marth is that he doesn't seem to know much about the world he's expected to govern. FE11 cured this-- he doesn't ask a lot of silly questions, and when somebody info-dumps at him, he's capable of an intelligent response. And in FE12, it looks as though MyUnit is there to ask the silly questions, so IS apparently realized that this was a weak point in his characterization.

*nods*

I appreciate FE3!Marth's good-hearted nature, but it doesn't make sense to me that he wouldn't know anything about his world after fighting TWO WARS. If I ever did an FE3 novelization I'd change quite a few things to make up for the lapses in storytelling.

[FE12's rendition of Marth and MyUnit business]

Basically, he's a mentally/emotionally-impaired co-dependent loser who is willing to abandon his troops on the field to save his own skin. Our Hero, ladies and gentlemen. Humanity's final hope. Looks like we're screwed.

...wow. :/ I don't want to blatantly hate FE12 or MyUnit without giving either a chance, but I REALLY don't like the sound of this. Break the hero so what's basically a potential self-insertion character can save the day? That doesn't make for a compelling story, or at least not the Monshou I know and love.

I normally hesitate to say this, but...this sounds an awful lot like a bad God Mode Sue fic. If I ever play FE12 I'm going to see if I can make MyUnit an Old Man type of figure so at least it's less of an insult to Marth's character.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

that he wouldn't know anything about his world after fighting TWO WARS

Word.

don't want to blatantly hate FE12 or MyUnit without giving either a chance, but I REALLY don't like the sound of this.

Yeah. I saw you mention MyUnit hate in your hive mind post... well, this is where it comes from. It's not like hating on Priscilla for being a "slut" or Micaiah for being a "Sue." It's more like... how dare you infest this game I love and make the characters I love look like tools?

If I ever play FE12 I'm going to see if I can make MyUnit an Old Man type of figure so at least it's less of an insult to Marth's character.

No can do. MyUnit's backstory makes him a grandson of one of Jagen's buddies. He's a new recruit who joins the Altean army after War of Darkness and he's hangin' out with Luke and Rody and Ryan. He's an ignorant nOOb, which is why he's the one asking silly questions.

So, FE12 "fixes" the problem of Marth being naive and ignorant by having him share the spotlight with someone even more naive and ignorant. I am not making this up. This is why Jayden calls MyUnit "Jellyfish Brains."

I call him "Rasputin." -_-

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

I like to imagine FE3!Marth as being somewhat like Aang from Avatar: The Last Airbender. He's become more experienced and learned plenty by the end of the war, but not by becoming a super jaded nineties anti-hero type

Yeah. I saw you mention MyUnit hate in your hive mind post... well, this is where it comes from. It's not like hating on Priscilla for being a "slut" or Micaiah for being a "Sue." It's more like... how dare you infest this game I love and make the characters I love look like tools?

*nods* I get it now. Though I'll hardly begrudge anyone who happens to LIKE the MyUnit feature, I don't like how it sounds.

No can do. MyUnit's backstory makes him a grandson of one of Jagen's buddies. He's a new recruit who joins the Altean army after War of Darkness and he's hangin' out with Luke and Rody and Ryan. He's an ignorant nOOb, which is why he's the one asking silly questions.

:/ Well, damn.

Oh well. If nothing else FE12 sounds like it'd be a fun "make your own bad Mary Sue/Gary Stu parody" simulator. Provided you don't take it seriously. XD

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Also, FE11!Marth had explicitly impure motivations. He wanted revenge. And he NEVER actually renounces it. It's implied, but his last actual statement on the matter is "No, I still hate them."
I was going to reply to Sara with this but you said it better than I could. I always joked he had an Aya Fujimiya Complex going on there, because Marth wants revenge for the murder of his parents, the kidnapping of his sister, and the destruction of his kingdom, and he will do what it takes to make sure 'justice' is carried out on the offending people. (At least his sister isn't comatose.)

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Hero!Marth might have acquired his reputation for holiness after the fact

This brings FF Tactics to mind, in which Delita is lauded as the hero who united Ivalice in the history books, yet turns out to be a hypocrite driven by less-than-ideal motives when you play the real story. It's all up to interpretation, of course, but he arguably has mostly good intentions, and his road to hell is paved with them, so to speak. I think that'd be an interesting way to approach Marth, especially with the idea that all of this is being orchestrated by the higher powers. Their goals and motives would be brought into question too.

Also, I think that allows more depth to his relationship with Hardin, which otherwise polarizes a bit with #1 (for some reason that idea sounds to me like it'd boil down to petty jealousy). Two and three sound like the most interesting options.

Also, I like hypocrite gods. It's why I read mythology. :D

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

This brings FF Tactics to mind

I need to play that, dammit. I've owned it for a year now, I think.

Their goals and motives would be brought into question too.

I completely question the motives of the gods. Especially given that most of the "gods" we meet (divine dragons), including the helpful ones, detest humans.

You can do a perfectly plausible reading of the Marth Games that sounds something like the Manipulative Bastard!Dumbledore theories out of Harry Potter fandom. Basically, Gotoh is orchestrating the whole thing on Tiki's behalf, Marth is his means to an end, and anything not connected with the goal of saving Tiki is a peripheral distraction. And anyone not facilitating Tiki's rescue can go hang.

for some reason that idea sounds to me like it'd boil down to petty jealousy

I want very much to preserve Hardin from the taint of petty jealousy. It does not feel right to have his motivation boil down to that. We are not talking about a couple of teenagers engaged in unhealthy competition. We are talking about a man in his early thirties, a man with more than a decade of accomplishments behind him, who allegedly sold his soul in order to fuck with a perceived rival who was half his age and technically subordinate to him.

Yeah, it can happen, but there are just too many things about it that feel half-baked.

Also, I like hypocrite gods. It's why I read mythology. :D

Yeah, me too!

[raphiael]

Based purely on FE11, Marth doesn't seem like a sparkly shiny hero to me. He seems driven more by vengeance and even ambition than some pure-hearted motivation. I'm a sucker for the idea of normal, flawed people being lionized and turned into heroes though, and from what I've seen, Marth fits it to a T.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Marth doesn't seem like a sparkly shiny hero to me

In FE11, he's not! This is what I mean by inconsistent characterization. FE11!Marth and FE3!Marth are completely incompatible, but Marth's "pure heart" is so integral to FE3 that it appears IS did horrible things to his characterization to make FE12 function.

It's like fitting a square peg into a round hole by first bending it into a pretzel!

I'm a sucker for the idea of normal, flawed people being lionized and turned into heroes though, and from what I've seen, Marth fits it to a T.

And this is why I fell head-over-heels for him in FE11. :D

[raphiael]

M-maybe I'll just stick to 11. All these different Marths are confusing as all hell.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, stick to 11. You'll stay more sane that way.

FE12 offers something of an "explanation" (at least I think that's what it's supposed to be) but it really, really sucks. Really sucks.

[raphiael]

Hrng that bites, because I really like Marth so far, and I already want mooooooaaaarrrr. But if he's gonna go from what I like in 11 to some happy-cheery-perfect-guy? Ugh, no thanks.
Disappointment is had.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

But if he's gonna go from what I like in 11 to some happy-cheery-perfect-guy?

Oh, he's not happy. I mean, the game script says flat-out he's emotionally tormented and has savior issues.

Unfortunately, the way this is handled is EXTREMELY DISPLEASING.

[raphiael]

Well, we all know about how Raphi feels about emotional torment, but if they're just gonna say it and then .. . not show it? Or go contrary to it? Ehhhhhh.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Once we get a complete localization, it might make sense, but from the partial fan-translations I've seen, it's just a very incoherent and nonsensical characterization. Nonsensical taken by itself, nonsensical in terms of what we see in FE11.

But the game's not out yet, so we can ignore it, right? Right.

[raphiael]

Hopefully a localization will happen, yeah. Fan-translations are always a bit iffy - hahaha, my translation of FE4 telling me Isaac was a character, that was terrible - so maybe it's just an underlying fail in portraying nuance and implication?
I really hope it is. :[

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

so maybe it's just an underlying fail in portraying nuance and implication?

I compared three different (very incomplete) translations, including the playthrough notes from Shimizu_Hitomi, who did the awesome FE2 translation. Another main source was a guy called Big Klingy over at Serenes Forest-- he's not part of the 'fic community that I know of and doesn't have our biases.

So I'm fairly confident in saying there is Bad Stuff in this game, but we don't know quite how every aspect of it fits together.

OTOH, people really, really like the gameplay of this one. As a game, it's supposed to be great. As fanfiction fodder... well, we all love "fix-it" stories, right?

[raphiael]

Hm, I see.
Does it retain the class change thing? Because I adore that so much.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Does it retain the class change thing?

Yep! If you meet certain criteria (I don't remember what now) you can even integrate the male class sets so horsemen can become archers and that sort of thing. And females can be cavaliers and generals now, IIRC.

[raphiael]

Oh, that makes it even more awesome. I haven't quite figured out how to choose the right classes for characters, though, heh.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

FE11!Marth and FE3!Marth are completely incompatible, but Marth's "pure heart" is so integral to FE3 that it appears IS did horrible things to his characterization to make FE12 function.
Instead of just trying to find a way to make his FE11 characterisation work in FE12. Yeah, might've had to rewrite the plot with it, but they already shoved friggin MyUnit in there, so why not mess with the plot a little too? Either that or they shouldn't have changed Marth's characterisation in FE11. I rather love Marth in FE11, because he seems human instead of this messiah-like figure who's placed up on a pedastal and they practically worship him. People might think that anyway in FE11 or whatever and wrote the history books so he'd be remembered as SPESHUL and WONDERFUL because he did save the world, but that was kind of a secondary objective. He wanted revenge for what happened to his family and kingdom. He actually sounded kind of bitter in FE11 about having to save the world, and I think he even questions a few things because of it. It's an interesting portrayal, I love it, and then FE12 came along and he was saying, "Let's go!" instead of making quasi-philosophical, interesting, heartbreaking, cynical speeches, and having to think for himself instead of just going, "OH MY UNIT, TELL ME HOW TO DO X AND WHILE YOU'RE AT IT TIE MY BOOTS AND WIPE MY ARSE." Seriously. *shakes fist at FE12*

It's like fitting a square peg into a round hole by first bending it into a pretzel!
I lol'd but that is a perfect comparison.

I LIKE MY HEROES FLAWED, DAMMIT.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

...I wish I was smarter about FE1/2/3/11/12 to actually sound smart like everyone else does. Hm.

Well, first let's start with this:

For one, if the key is to write a consistent, plausible take on the characters and their motivations, that means picking one characterization out of the possible options and sticking with it for 200K-500K words. Think that's easy? Not if you want the whole shebang to make any sense.

Speaking from personal experience, and over three at-least 20k first-drafts of an FE7 novelization? Uh, you're right. It's NOT easy to pick one "version" of a character and stick with it. This is fairly true of any epic-- because the FE characters all are written with personalities that are juuust flexible enough.

However, Marth is the Worst of the Worst. Because he's incredibly inconsistent even within canon.

I have mixed feelings on naive characters. Naivete is easy to see in younger heroes. (Kids saving the world? Come on. They might be more mature than modern-day kids of the same age simply due to the circumstances of their world, but STILL. Most people who aren't adults don't think like adults, and having not seen the world Don't Get It. Of course, this can easily be true of adults, too!)

I actually like the idea of a naive Marth, who, in his naivete turns into something of a hypocrite. As far as Hardin goes... I don't know much about him (sorry I fail), but from what I've seen in Real Life? People do not like being outdone by someone younger and less experienced than they are. Also! Let's not forget-- if Marth is squeaky clean, that'd grate on Hardin's nerves (because nobody is truly squeaky clean), and if he's a naive boy turned hypocrite, well...that would explain a lot. That doesn't mean Hardin's excused for his actions/behavior/et cetera, but it might be kind of like, OH, so THAT'S where he's coming from.

Either way, like you said and like I agreed with-- picking one set characterization and sticking with it isn't easy. I think I estimated Lyn's Story at at least 100k by itself. And the thought of making her grow as a character and person (and getting into selfish!Lyn which was JUST EXCITING) for thousands of words was fascinating...it was also really difficult. How can a person pick? But I might be a bit biased, because I'm used to writing one-shots, where a character can, in general, be bent just a little in various directions to make things work. (Err, not that I generally bend characters, but canon usually allows for several interpretations of each character.)

I used to think, well damn, how could I ever write something original? But I think it'd be easier to write an original epic-length story. At least your own characters, when made, are exactly as they need to be. Whereas in 'fic, well, they could be written one of at least three ways...and then to keep it consistent (unlike the games do)? Yeah, not easy at all!

I'll probably never get back to that novelization for that very reason. Which is too bad, 'cause I had some excellent (I'm so full of myself) ideas for it.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

However, Marth is the Worst of the Worst. Because he's incredibly inconsistent even within canon.

Yeah. I see what you mean about Lyn being inconsistent, but Marth is 9000% worse.

Most people who aren't adults don't think like adults

YES. And this was something I think (?) they pulled off in FE11-- when Marth got into certain situations that weren't "according to the rules," like when dealing with Horace and Camus (and when tomb-raiding in another dimension, hah), he didn't know how to deal with it. Wasn't part of Basic Hero Training, I guess.

But it might be kind of like, OH, so THAT'S where he's coming from.

Exactly. And that is a very good, very convincing way that It Might Go. That might well be how canon!Hardin actually sees it. But the trouble with a novel-length story is, once you've committed to that take on Marth and Hardin, if something then doesn't make sense in Chapter 23 (because characters who should also be irritated by NaiveHypocrite!Marth are lauding him and trusting him and such), you're hosed. Either the other characters (I'm thinking of smart cookies like George here) come off as nitwits or you have to start bending the iron framework of canon to make sense of things.

But I might be a bit biased, because I'm used to writing one-shots, where a character can, in general, be bent just a little in various directions to make things work.

Indeed.

I mean, I think I did something pretty ambitious with the Tales of the Unified Kingdom, and part of it was taking FE11!Marth and estimating where and what he'd be after the events of the War of Heroes. And I liked what I came up with (even though FE12 proved me oh so very wrong about him), and I worked with that knowing that a potential remake might drop me in the soup.

But even that wasn't one sustained novelization. It was a series of long and short pieces spanning decades, focused on different characters. That's a different set of challenges than attempting a 200K word epic.

At least your own characters, when made, are exactly as they need to be.

Not really. Once a character really comes alive, they can grow and evolve in directions you'd never expect. Discovering the hidden depths of your own OCs is a wonderful and frustrating thing.

Which is too bad, 'cause I had some excellent (I'm so full of myself) ideas for it.

I still think the world needs an FE7 epic without the tactician, and one that preferably doesn't start in Lyn's ger on the plains. Start with the fall of Cornwall, or the death of Hector's parents, or with Florina meeting Lyn for the first time, or SOMETHING else.

[raphiael]

I can't say I haven't played with that fall of Cornwall idea since I said it yesterday. But uh, writing for 6 and 7 is very hard for some reason.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

I think you already know which of those Marths I tend to pick. :-)

As for the discussion at large, I would love to see something like this for Archanea, but it would be a lot of work, especially if you incorporate all the little subplots. And I imagine the temptation to fix a few things that the script breaks (Abel!) would be awful.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I think you already know which of those Marths I tend to pick. :-)

Heh. See comments re: "darkfic" above. Yes, it is definitely a different kind of story if they're both nuts!

I imagine the temptation to fix a few things that the script breaks (Abel!) would be awful.

Fix Abel? Like, have him not betray Marth and lose everything because of it? No way, man. I like that part. I mean, I don't like it but I think it's totally necessary. One of the things I dislike about FE12 is the "everybody who ever took part in this lived except Lorenz, Boah, and Hardin" is that it makes the whole war seem cheap.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

Darkfic may be my Archanean destiny. :-)

Re: Abel, I was thinking more of the Catria situation.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Catria? I think you mean either Palla or Est. Catria's the one who wants Marth. Her sisters are into Abel.

No, honestly there's not a lot about the small-scale tragedies of Archanea that I'd fix. All that misery helps define Archanea as a gameworld, and playing Mr. Fix-it turns tragedy into something more like farce. (See: Michalis.)

The one reaaaally dodgy thing that FE12 "cleaned up" that I think they handled (mostly) well was the treatment of Melissa. By fixing her firmly as a romantic and fanciful innocent they removed the poky but persistent suspicion (on my part, anyway) that something sketchy took place between her and Marth. Now it seems clear that it's all wishful thinking on her part and a typical failure to communicate on his.

Of course, if I were to paint him as a hypocrite, I'd go the sketch route anyway.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

and a typical failure to communicate on his.
Marth needs to take some basic communication classes, I think. People can't read his mind. Maybe Sheeda can, but anyone else? No.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

Whoops! Wrong Pegasus Sister. ^_^; I did mean Palla and / or Est.

And I would most likely err on the side of evil by throwing Marth / Melissa into play, too, but that is me.

....

I could never novelize Archanea. 'Tis far too tempting to do some crazy elaborate alternate continuity where everything goes wacky and My Unit goes to the gallows.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

And I would most likely err on the side of evil by throwing Marth / Melissa into play, too, but that is me.

I'd go there. I mean, if the entire point of the exercise is "as things really happened without the lulzy anime content"? Some guy running around the countryside with his little army picks up a barely-legal chick after being given free rein to "make her his bride," spends an entire year toting her around without ever disabusing her of the notion that he loves her and plans to marry her, and after she finally gets a clue she leaves him for parts unknown... which upsets him.

That's not actually funny. At all.

[And having her survival be a requirement for the Real Good Ending is flippin' weird... it just creates, intentionally or otherwise, the impression that she's as important as Tiki and Caeda. Uh...]

and My Unit goes to the gallows.

The easiest way to defang MyUnit, IMO, is simply to demystify him. There's this knight dude, his name is Chris, and he's underfoot. End of story. And if you want Marth to be a sheltered innocent, then MyUnit could actually prove useful. He'd just need to be more like Super!Matthew than Sir Loyal Knight Dude.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

One of the things I dislike about FE12 is the "everybody who ever took part in this lived except Lorenz, Boah, and Hardin" is that it makes the whole war seem cheap.
It's like FE12 said, "OH PSHAW, THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES TO WAR UNLESS YOU'RE EVIL."

Also I hate how FE12 dealt with Minerva's brother. EURGH.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

"OH PSHAW, THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES TO WAR UNLESS YOU'RE EVIL"

And by its twisted logic, arranging a state marriage is more evil (or at least impermissible) than murdering your father and farming out your baby sister as a hostage.

FE12: The Gods Must Be Crazy

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Maybe all those fics saying arranged marriages for the Sake of Politics were right when they said it was evil! Surely on the level of kicking puppies! But murdering your father and having your baby sister be used as a hostage to form an alliance is a-okay, because no puppies are hurt and it's DONE FOR LOVE DONTCHA KNOW.

FE12: What Were They Smoking?

Seriously.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

But.

LAWRENCE ISN'T EVIL. HE WAS LIKE SHEEDA'S SECOND FATHER AND HE TOOK CARE OF YUBELLO AND YUMINA AND HE WAS ONLY BEING FORCED TO FOLLOW ORDERS AND THEN HE KILLED HIMSELF ;_;

And Boa was just trying to do what he felt was best :(

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

LAWRENCE ISN'T EVIL

Well, this is the other problem I have with FE12.

FE3 had a world with some kind of moral consistency and... well, standards. Michalis crossed a line when he killed his father, and he could be "redeemed" but still had to die. Hardin crossed a dozen lines when he turned dark, and he was able to die lucid and repentant but still died. The whole Archanean royal dynasty was, in a sense, illegimate because their founder committed blasphemous acts.

FE12? Appears to chuck all that out the window. Michalis lives to snark another day. My understanding is that the line about old King Adrah trashing the Shield of Seals isn't even in the game script. A character who does some pretty bad things gets a big slushy forgiveness scene, but Lorenz and Boah die and stay dead.

Really, nothing makes sense. From the top to the bottom.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Michalis crossed a line when he killed his father, and he could be "redeemed" but still had to die.

His was an epic case of "death equals redemption"...or is it "redemption equals death"? Or a mix of the two? Either way, his death was poignant and meaningful and one of the saddest scenes in all of FE3.

FE12? Appears to chuck all that out the window. Michalis lives to snark another day. My understanding is that the line about old King Adrah trashing the Shield of Seals isn't even in the game script. A character who does some pretty bad things gets a big slushy forgiveness scene, but Lorenz and Boah die and stay dead.

My inner cynic wonders if Misheil won a "get out of jail free" card because he's hot, and Lawrence and Boa don't because they're old and therefore not hot. (TVTropes also seems to think the looks issue is the case with the "plain" Hardin...who really isn't that plain? I think he's attractive. :P)

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

*waves hand* I WOULD READ IT.

Having written a novelisation (that I never finished, mind) that's ~79k words? Yes. It is hard. It is very hard. VERY HARD. Especially with characterisations. In FE6's case, I turned to the game script and support conversations to A) see how Roy was at the beginning of the game and B) see how he progressed. Naturally I also used stuff from headcanon because FE6 needed a lot of fleshing out especially with off-camera moments and whatever. It was not easy. I never finished because my brain exploded.

SO THEN I WENT TO AKANEIA FANDOM, where Our Hero has 854935834 different CANON INTERPRETATIONS. Oh holy crap. I tried to write a novelisation on this too. I'd be able to do it on FE11 because I love FE11!Marth to pieces. He is flawed and most important of all, human. He wakes up one morning to find his castle being invaded, his father is fighting in a war and (later confirmed) is dead because DAMN YOU GRA AND YOUR BACKSTABBING WAYS and he has no idea where his mother is because she and Elice got separated and now they're wisking Marth away to Talis because HIS FATHER IS DEAD AND MARTH IS THEIR ONLY HOPE TO SAVE THE WORLD and btw he's fourteen, his kingdom just got taken over and pretty much burned to the ground, his sister is kidnapped and might be dead, his mother is missing, and his father was murdered.

What a lovely morning.

He wants REVENGE but he's not strong enough so A'TRAINING I GO SO I CAN KILL THOSE BASTARDS (or would he say 'sea-fowl'? Eurgh). But oh yeah, saving the world. He makes Hard Decisions despite not wanting to because he MUST and oh god I love Marth in this game and his pragmatism and just. Human. Also how he can sometimes be sarcastic. Love. WHY WEREN'T YOU COOL LIKE THIS IN THE ANIME, MARTH?

But then FE12 killed it all *sobs*

ANYWAY.

To do something for the War of Heroes, Marth would be difficult. Do you want FE3 characterisation with some FE12 stuff thrown in? Or complete FE12 characterisation? Or some middle ground? Or headcanon? Can you stick with it? THESE QUESTIONS WOULD EXPLODE MY BRAIN. When I was writing "Call to Arms" I didn't have stupid FE12 to worry about so I could've just used the events in FE3 and made them fit Marth's new characterisation.

For me, if I were writing it, I'd probably do a mix of #2 and #3, leaning more towards the second one. I could always say he was considered special because, oh, he's the descendent of Anri the Hero and that MUST COUNT FOR SOMETHING YES

Though I must admit I really do like this: Hero!Marth might have acquired his reputation for holiness after the fact; rather than winning because he was Special, he's remembered as Special because he won and his followers wrote the history books. It makes sense to me, and that's kind of what my headcanon points to, along with "well-intentioned with a blind spot".

But if you were gonna do #3, which yes, would be quite dark, and very, very quickly too, I'd suggest "he might be a well-intentioned person with a blind spot". I don't buy the whole 'flat out delusional' because really, basing everything off of FE11, I...don't see him going down that route unless even more shit happened, like Sheeda died and they didn't get all the star fragments and then not only do you get the bad ending but the FAIL ending as well. Then Marth would probably lose all sense of reality because then he would just utterly mentally break from everything.

I really need to find a translation of FE12's game script, if there is one. Trying to remember (and mentally translate!) FE12 is not a good thing because god only knows if there's headcanon in there tainting it XD

(Then also I can remember what Hardin's propaganda was too.)

I don't see Marth as naive at all. Not in FE11. Not in FE12. FE12 did awful things to him anyway. Eurgh.

I COULD GO ON FOREVER but comments have limits and yeah.