Epic Failure
Feb. 2nd, 2011 11:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mark_asphodel Taking a break from the "Bad Fanfiction" series... which has generated all kinds of fantastic discussion (y'all are awesome).
So,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sacae posted "If you had to write an "epic" (200k-500k) fanfiction about a group/groups of characters (any fandom, any characters), who would you choose to write about and why?"
A prequel to The Alienist about the adventures of Kreizler, Moore, and Roosevelt during their university days.
Uh...
Oh yes. I write for Fire Emblem.
Ideally, I'd do exactly what I mentioned doing on Manna's journal: "a serious take on the War of Heroes as enacted by adults without the anime shenanigans," wherein the politics and religion all made some kind of meaningful sense.
I do believe that the core story of said War of Heroes (FE3 Book II / FE12) is one of the best storylines in Fire Emblem (yes, Seisen is the end-all be-all of everything, and I've seen a strong case made for the storyline of Radiant Dawn), in part because it starts as a purely political story. It's not another case of "OMG we've been attacked"-- your team of "good guys" starts out doing some pretty dodgy work in another country at the request of the person who turns out to be the Big Bad. It's a taste of some of the complexities of Seisen; Hardin is banking on his knowledge of Marth, pushing Marth into one uncomfortable situation after another, upping the ante until Marth bucks his orders... which gives Hardin the pretext to invade Altea and declare Marth as Public Enemy Number One. At the core of it is, allegedly, a friendship and working relationship gone horribly, horribly wrong.
Unfortunately, the feel for that end of the storyline gets lost once the supernatural component kicks in. Not that the supernatural component is unwelcome, as the "dragon angle" turns out to be what makes the Archanea universe so very compelling. I tend to think that the actual point of the whole Archanea dog-and-pony show is actually the preservation of Tiki, not the question of who's married to whom, or who rules the continent. That's all Gotoh cares about, in any event, and he's as close to Voice of God as this universe gets.
So we have a very good supernatural/religious plotline, and a very good political story, and while they don't mesh seamlessly the combination makes the War of Heroes both extremely compelling and an excellent place to deploy fan-theories, suppositions, and crack. Now, what binds these two storylines together is the Gharnef/Medeus package deal, which IMO is the weak point of the story. Incredibly significant, and the source of some really memorable material, but... well, hell, didn't we just kill these guys a couple of years ago? FE12 apparently lends some depth to Gharnef beyond "butthurt and seeking revenge," but I frankly liked him better during the War of Darkness, wherein it was apparent he was planning to leave Medeus hanging and rule the continent all by his little twisted self. And Medeus gets an awesome backstory but nothing to really do except pop up from his hole, make threats, and die. Again.
But yeah, if I had infinite time to bang away at Fire Emblem and an audience that would give a damn, I'd want to give the War of Heroes a full-on serious treatment. Doing so, though, runs right into some serious problems. For one, if the key is to write a consistent, plausible take on the characters and their motivations, that means picking one characterization out of the possible options and sticking with it for 200K-500K words. Think that's easy? Not if you want the whole shebang to make any sense.
Take Our Hero. Marth's characterization over the years has been anything but consistent. He's saddled with the dual roles of being a inspirational/spiritual figure AND a political/military leader... well, let's just say later games didn't make that mistake. Imagine Eirika and L'Arachel melded into one character. Better yet, don't. So for a prose treatment of the game, you have at least three clear options:
1) Messiah!Marth. A naive, childlike (or childish) redemptive figure, come to lead Archanea out of the darkness that generations of wicked adults brought upon it. Pure-heared, trusting, loving, forgiving... and quite possibly immune to the corruption of the world, barring a BSOD breakdown. Pros of taking this route include a) why Gotoh trusts Marth and b) why Marth's father Cornelius was apparently not Good Enough to win the favor of the "gods." [Archanea canon makes clear that higher powers are orchestrating this whole fiasco. This CANNOT be ignored in interpreting canon.] Cons of this would include that Marth is not going to be able to lace his damned boots, much less lead an army, without major, major props from the supporting cast.
2) Hero!Marth. A politically-clued in adult figure, whose ideals and behavior are at least marginally better than the prevailing standard but who is not so special as to be incorruptible. Pros of this would include showing Marth as being capable of dealing with the massive political burden he's shouldering by the end of the war. Cons of this would be that, well, if he's not So Incredibly Special, why is there insistence on making him, er, Special?
3) Hypocrite!Marth. As in, someone whose "grand ideals" simply do not jive with the things he's actually doing. Pros of this include reconciling #1 and #2 above, to some extent. Cons of this are... well, we could hit darkfic territory in a hurry going that route.
And you can do interesting things with these that make something more than a regurgitation of the script in prose form. Messiah!Marth might be aided by a MyUnit figure-- instead of a cardboard MyUnit, how about a savvy operator, a spy or assassin, someone who really is pulling strings from the "shadows" to help the cause? Hero!Marth might have acquired his reputation for holiness after the fact; rather than winning because he was Special, he's remembered as Special because he won and his followers wrote the history books. Hypocrite!Marth (and I got this idea from FE12!Gharnef, fwiw) could be utilized in any number of ways-- he might be a well-intentioned person with a blind spot, he might be as self-righteous and ambitious as Hardin's propaganda paints him, or he might be flat-out delusional.
Hardin, Our Antagonist, offers similar problems-- is he a good (or great) man, a genuine friend whose real sin is not envy or wrath but acedia, which leaves him prey to the Darksphere's influence? Or a man and leader who really is corroded from within by resentment of a much younger rival? Is he aware of the influence of the Darksphere and fighting against it (canon indicates yes, IMO)? If so, how much is he willing or able to fight?
Obviously, the tone of the "epic fic" would change dramatically depending on which "Marth" and which "Hardin" are used. If Marth is squeaky-clean and Hardin hates his guts, it's going to be a different story from one where Marth's a suspect individual with a shiny reputation and Hardin hates his guts. And whatever the author (okay, I) chose from the outset of the story, it would have to be sustained for the full length of the epic... regardless of the pitfalls.
That's a shit-ton of work for a story maybe two people would read, and we haven't even touched the dragon plotline yet!
PS- I just realized I don't have a "Marth" tag for this journal. Basically, if it's about Fire Emblem, it's about Marth in some way, shape, or form.
So,
sacae posted "If you had to write an "epic" (200k-500k) fanfiction about a group/groups of characters (any fandom, any characters), who would you choose to write about and why?" A prequel to The Alienist about the adventures of Kreizler, Moore, and Roosevelt during their university days.
Uh...
Oh yes. I write for Fire Emblem.
Ideally, I'd do exactly what I mentioned doing on Manna's journal: "a serious take on the War of Heroes as enacted by adults without the anime shenanigans," wherein the politics and religion all made some kind of meaningful sense.
I do believe that the core story of said War of Heroes (FE3 Book II / FE12) is one of the best storylines in Fire Emblem (yes, Seisen is the end-all be-all of everything, and I've seen a strong case made for the storyline of Radiant Dawn), in part because it starts as a purely political story. It's not another case of "OMG we've been attacked"-- your team of "good guys" starts out doing some pretty dodgy work in another country at the request of the person who turns out to be the Big Bad. It's a taste of some of the complexities of Seisen; Hardin is banking on his knowledge of Marth, pushing Marth into one uncomfortable situation after another, upping the ante until Marth bucks his orders... which gives Hardin the pretext to invade Altea and declare Marth as Public Enemy Number One. At the core of it is, allegedly, a friendship and working relationship gone horribly, horribly wrong.
Unfortunately, the feel for that end of the storyline gets lost once the supernatural component kicks in. Not that the supernatural component is unwelcome, as the "dragon angle" turns out to be what makes the Archanea universe so very compelling. I tend to think that the actual point of the whole Archanea dog-and-pony show is actually the preservation of Tiki, not the question of who's married to whom, or who rules the continent. That's all Gotoh cares about, in any event, and he's as close to Voice of God as this universe gets.
So we have a very good supernatural/religious plotline, and a very good political story, and while they don't mesh seamlessly the combination makes the War of Heroes both extremely compelling and an excellent place to deploy fan-theories, suppositions, and crack. Now, what binds these two storylines together is the Gharnef/Medeus package deal, which IMO is the weak point of the story. Incredibly significant, and the source of some really memorable material, but... well, hell, didn't we just kill these guys a couple of years ago? FE12 apparently lends some depth to Gharnef beyond "butthurt and seeking revenge," but I frankly liked him better during the War of Darkness, wherein it was apparent he was planning to leave Medeus hanging and rule the continent all by his little twisted self. And Medeus gets an awesome backstory but nothing to really do except pop up from his hole, make threats, and die. Again.
But yeah, if I had infinite time to bang away at Fire Emblem and an audience that would give a damn, I'd want to give the War of Heroes a full-on serious treatment. Doing so, though, runs right into some serious problems. For one, if the key is to write a consistent, plausible take on the characters and their motivations, that means picking one characterization out of the possible options and sticking with it for 200K-500K words. Think that's easy? Not if you want the whole shebang to make any sense.
Take Our Hero. Marth's characterization over the years has been anything but consistent. He's saddled with the dual roles of being a inspirational/spiritual figure AND a political/military leader... well, let's just say later games didn't make that mistake. Imagine Eirika and L'Arachel melded into one character. Better yet, don't. So for a prose treatment of the game, you have at least three clear options:
1) Messiah!Marth. A naive, childlike (or childish) redemptive figure, come to lead Archanea out of the darkness that generations of wicked adults brought upon it. Pure-heared, trusting, loving, forgiving... and quite possibly immune to the corruption of the world, barring a BSOD breakdown. Pros of taking this route include a) why Gotoh trusts Marth and b) why Marth's father Cornelius was apparently not Good Enough to win the favor of the "gods." [Archanea canon makes clear that higher powers are orchestrating this whole fiasco. This CANNOT be ignored in interpreting canon.] Cons of this would include that Marth is not going to be able to lace his damned boots, much less lead an army, without major, major props from the supporting cast.
2) Hero!Marth. A politically-clued in adult figure, whose ideals and behavior are at least marginally better than the prevailing standard but who is not so special as to be incorruptible. Pros of this would include showing Marth as being capable of dealing with the massive political burden he's shouldering by the end of the war. Cons of this would be that, well, if he's not So Incredibly Special, why is there insistence on making him, er, Special?
3) Hypocrite!Marth. As in, someone whose "grand ideals" simply do not jive with the things he's actually doing. Pros of this include reconciling #1 and #2 above, to some extent. Cons of this are... well, we could hit darkfic territory in a hurry going that route.
And you can do interesting things with these that make something more than a regurgitation of the script in prose form. Messiah!Marth might be aided by a MyUnit figure-- instead of a cardboard MyUnit, how about a savvy operator, a spy or assassin, someone who really is pulling strings from the "shadows" to help the cause? Hero!Marth might have acquired his reputation for holiness after the fact; rather than winning because he was Special, he's remembered as Special because he won and his followers wrote the history books. Hypocrite!Marth (and I got this idea from FE12!Gharnef, fwiw) could be utilized in any number of ways-- he might be a well-intentioned person with a blind spot, he might be as self-righteous and ambitious as Hardin's propaganda paints him, or he might be flat-out delusional.
Hardin, Our Antagonist, offers similar problems-- is he a good (or great) man, a genuine friend whose real sin is not envy or wrath but acedia, which leaves him prey to the Darksphere's influence? Or a man and leader who really is corroded from within by resentment of a much younger rival? Is he aware of the influence of the Darksphere and fighting against it (canon indicates yes, IMO)? If so, how much is he willing or able to fight?
Obviously, the tone of the "epic fic" would change dramatically depending on which "Marth" and which "Hardin" are used. If Marth is squeaky-clean and Hardin hates his guts, it's going to be a different story from one where Marth's a suspect individual with a shiny reputation and Hardin hates his guts. And whatever the author (okay, I) chose from the outset of the story, it would have to be sustained for the full length of the epic... regardless of the pitfalls.
That's a shit-ton of work for a story maybe two people would read, and we haven't even touched the dragon plotline yet!
PS- I just realized I don't have a "Marth" tag for this journal. Basically, if it's about Fire Emblem, it's about Marth in some way, shape, or form.
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no subject
Date: 2011-02-02 05:38 pm (UTC)Yeah. That's why I don't like the "naive" portrayal of Marth, as it makes him little more than a pretty figurehead. If that's all he is, why should any of the other characters cede authority to him? Seriously, why not have George and Linde marry and become the new rulers of Archanea?
he's still clearly a good guy and maybe that was enough.
I dunno. If that's enough, then is raises the question of why Hardin's years (more than a decade!) of being a good guy counted for so little. Camus wasn't exactly operating out selfish desires, either-- not when he was loyally serving Ludwik, anyway. There is certainly some element of selfishness in why he saved Nyna, but... I dunno. The question just kind of folds back on itself as to where the line in the sand is.
[Hm. Maybe what sets Marth apart is that he didn't want to bang Nyna, and Nyna is the root of all evil.]
Also, FE11!Marth had explicitly impure motivations. He wanted revenge. And he NEVER actually renounces it. It's implied, but his last actual statement on the matter is "No, I still hate them."
:/
no subject
Date: 2011-02-02 07:13 pm (UTC)Hmm, good point. But Hardin was somewhat easy to seduce over to the dark side, while Camus was a blatant case of "my country right or wrong". Marth was just doing what he needed to do...I like to imagine he was somewhat like Celice in regards to being thrust into this Special Hero role, all unsure and nervous but still willing to do whatever he had to do.
Also, FE11!Marth had explicitly impure motivations. He wanted revenge. And he NEVER actually renounces it. It's implied, but his last actual statement on the matter is "No, I still hate them."
Then why would Gato single him out as special?
If Marth isn't completely pure, then I guess it's because he's Anri's descendant. But so was Cornelius, right? So how was he not strong enough where Marth was? (Maybe I oughta just chalk that up to FE having a fetish for dead fathers.)
no subject
Date: 2011-02-02 07:37 pm (UTC)Well, that's one of the main things that doesn't make any sense. Why does he come across as more pragmatic and clued-in during War of Darkness and less so during War of Heroes?
Marth was just doing what he needed to do
I think this is where they were going with FE11 in large part. That's part of what makes him interesting, to me-- he's taken that mindset so far by the end of the game ("I don't see what my wants have to do with anything").
Then why would Gato single him out as special?
Beats me. I guess we're supposed to pick up on the implications that Marth has abandoned the whole revenge business and just roll with that? Or Gotoh is simply really pleased with Marth's obedience and willingness to run fetch-quests. Given Gotoh's overall dirt-low opinion of humanity, that might be all it comes down to. :/
So how was he not strong enough where Marth was?
That's what I want to know, really. In terms of FE3 alone, I think it made sense-- Marth is singled out as being "different" again and again. But in light of 11 & 12? No sense making.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-02 08:45 pm (UTC)...y'know, I never noticed that. But you're right, it doesn't make any sense. Maybe they did it so as not to confuse anyone who chose to start with Book 2? Not a very good excuse, but still.
Overall I have no major personal beef with FE3!Marth as a character, I'm just content to blame it on the writers not really thinking things through. :/
Beats me. I guess we're supposed to pick up on the implications that Marth has abandoned the whole revenge business and just roll with that? Or Gotoh is simply really pleased with Marth's obedience and willingness to run fetch-quests. Given Gotoh's overall dirt-low opinion of humanity, that might be all it comes down to. :/
Sadly, that actually makes a lot of sense. :/ You mentioned below that his main goal was to protect Chiki, and Marth was a means to an end.
Definitely. Until we somehow get a concrete answer I'm just going to chalk it up to FE having a fetish for dead dads. Even if Marth's was the first.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-02 09:13 pm (UTC)Well, FE3!Marth is not a "type" of character I like (and he does not come off well next to Alm, Cellica, or Sigurd, IMO), but taken by himself he does make sense, at least from the religious-messiah angle. He makes sense as the redeemer of a horribly corrupt world. It's when you lay down FE11 next to FE3, and then throw in FE12, that it all dissolves into WTF. :/
I'm just going to chalk it up to FE having a fetish for dead dads.
Heh!
Well, they did kill his parents before the whole War of Heroes plotline was invented, so to a certain extent, they must've been making things up as they went along. But the remakes should've offered the opportunity to FIX that, not to make things more confusing.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-02 09:38 pm (UTC)What exactly did they do to Marth in FE12?
Well, they did kill his parents before the whole War of Heroes plotline was invented, so to a certain extent, they must've been making things up as they went along. But the remakes should've offered the opportunity to FIX that, not to make things more confusing.
Like I said, primitive storytelling. Not that FE3 had a bad story, but the writers clearly didn't think some things through.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-02 11:12 pm (UTC)My major problem with FE3!Marth is that he doesn't seem to know much about the world he's expected to govern. FE11 cured this-- he doesn't ask a lot of silly questions, and when somebody info-dumps at him, he's capable of an intelligent response. And in FE12, it looks as though MyUnit is there to ask the silly questions, so IS apparently realized that this was a weak point in his characterization.
HOWEVER...
What exactly did they do to Marth in FE12?
I'd ask you to just ask Jayden, as she's played it, but I think you'd get a ton of profanity. ;)
1) Take FE11!Marth. Restore his "innocence" by explaining via exposition that while he may look like a competent king on the outside, he's actually a fragile, wounded, bleeding child mentally/emotionally. [OK. This, at least, removed any doubts that the weird things in FE11 were intentional.]
2) Assign MyUnit to be his babysitter. [OK. I guess that's the premise of the game.]
3) Then have awful scenes like MyUnit telling Marth to abandon the army in Chiasmir and flee for his life, because MyUnit can handle things (Marth does so), or Marth being unable to figure out how to attack Pales, so MyUnit comes up with the sneak attack via the mountain pass. [This offended me.] Have Marth unable to make a decision without MyUnit signing off on it. Never mind that Jagen is the actual tactician.
4) Add insult to injury by making it clear that the Four Lovers go through MyUnit to get involved in the plan to save the Four Priestesses, leaving open the possibility that FE!12 Marth never figured out who Sirius is (OW) and creating the impression that even Merric can't have a word with his alleged best friend (Double OW).
5) At the end, rub salt in the wounds by having MyUnit tell Marth that he/she is heroically giving Marth all the credit for their victory. Insert dewy-eyed scene of gratitude ripped off from the CG of Lyn's farewell to the Tactician.
Basically, he's a mentally/emotionally-impaired co-dependent loser who is willing to abandon his troops on the field to save his own skin. Our Hero, ladies and gentlemen. Humanity's final hope. Looks like we're screwed.
This is simply what happens when a gameplay element (MyUnit) is allowed to stomp holes through the plot. I don't know what IS thought the effect would be, but it diminishes Marth beyond the point of having any credibility while pretending to celebrate him.
And this is why Jayden waxes profane at the very mention of Shin Monshou.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-02 11:33 pm (UTC)*nods*
I appreciate FE3!Marth's good-hearted nature, but it doesn't make sense to me that he wouldn't know anything about his world after fighting TWO WARS. If I ever did an FE3 novelization I'd change quite a few things to make up for the lapses in storytelling.
[FE12's rendition of Marth and MyUnit business]
Basically, he's a mentally/emotionally-impaired co-dependent loser who is willing to abandon his troops on the field to save his own skin. Our Hero, ladies and gentlemen. Humanity's final hope. Looks like we're screwed.
...wow. :/ I don't want to blatantly hate FE12 or MyUnit without giving either a chance, but I REALLY don't like the sound of this. Break the hero so what's basically a potential self-insertion character can save the day? That doesn't make for a compelling story, or at least not the Monshou I know and love.
I normally hesitate to say this, but...this sounds an awful lot like a bad God Mode Sue fic. If I ever play FE12 I'm going to see if I can make MyUnit an Old Man type of figure so at least it's less of an insult to Marth's character.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-03 01:11 am (UTC)Word.
don't want to blatantly hate FE12 or MyUnit without giving either a chance, but I REALLY don't like the sound of this.
Yeah. I saw you mention MyUnit hate in your hive mind post... well, this is where it comes from. It's not like hating on Priscilla for being a "slut" or Micaiah for being a "Sue." It's more like... how dare you infest this game I love and make the characters I love look like tools?
If I ever play FE12 I'm going to see if I can make MyUnit an Old Man type of figure so at least it's less of an insult to Marth's character.
No can do. MyUnit's backstory makes him a grandson of one of Jagen's buddies. He's a new recruit who joins the Altean army after War of Darkness and he's hangin' out with Luke and Rody and Ryan. He's an ignorant nOOb, which is why he's the one asking silly questions.
So, FE12 "fixes" the problem of Marth being naive and ignorant by having him share the spotlight with someone even more naive and ignorant. I am not making this up. This is why Jayden calls MyUnit "Jellyfish Brains."
I call him "Rasputin." -_-
no subject
Date: 2011-02-03 01:21 am (UTC)Yeah. I saw you mention MyUnit hate in your hive mind post... well, this is where it comes from. It's not like hating on Priscilla for being a "slut" or Micaiah for being a "Sue." It's more like... how dare you infest this game I love and make the characters I love look like tools?
*nods* I get it now. Though I'll hardly begrudge anyone who happens to LIKE the MyUnit feature, I don't like how it sounds.
No can do. MyUnit's backstory makes him a grandson of one of Jagen's buddies. He's a new recruit who joins the Altean army after War of Darkness and he's hangin' out with Luke and Rody and Ryan. He's an ignorant nOOb, which is why he's the one asking silly questions.
:/ Well, damn.
Oh well. If nothing else FE12 sounds like it'd be a fun "make your own bad Mary Sue/Gary Stu parody" simulator. Provided you don't take it seriously. XD
no subject
Date: 2011-02-03 10:22 am (UTC)I was going to reply to Sara with this but you said it better than I could. I always joked he had an Aya Fujimiya Complex going on there, because Marth wants revenge for the murder of his parents, the kidnapping of his sister, and the destruction of his kingdom, and he will do what it takes to make sure 'justice' is carried out on the offending people. (At least his sister isn't comatose.)