New Thoughts on Ephraim

[mark_asphodel]

IT'S A TROLL, GUYS.  

He admits to being an ex-troll.  He admits to being a trouble maker.  And he comes on with his barrage of bogus facts, his misuse of inflammatory words (Ellen the pedophile?), and his statements that cannot be taken as anything but offensive, and the people who call him out on it can't get a break.  

OTOH, rebuttals to his trolling have stimulated some actual discussion of canon in that Pairing Game thread.

But dammit, if I were a mod I'd have banned his ass by now.  (Greener, not Korean Boron Etc)

-x-

This on emblanon  caught my eye.  Not convinced Ephraim is intended as disinterested in women.  He reacts too strongly to L'Arachel, IMO.  And if you don't think that's a reaction, compare Eph's interactions with L'Arachel to, say, Marth's interactions with any female not named Caeda in any of the Archanea games.  By Fire Emblem standards, "She's rather cute" is practically "I'd hit that."

But I don't see his "support" with L'Arachel as anything terribly deep and meaningful, and I do not for one second believe in his relationship with Tana (and the anons outlined the disconnect in that relationship pretty well).

And Ephraim is kind of... odd, at least as far as his paired endings go.  

Let's recap:

Early FE games presented a One True Love set-up for the main character.  You have Alm/Cellica and Sigurd/Diadora (mandatory canon), Marth/Caeda and Leaf/Nanna (default canon), and that was that.  But FE4 presented the world with Pimpmaster Celice and his harem of eligible women, and that continued with Super Pimp Roy and his gaggle of beauties in FE6.  (The sex appeal of either Celice or Roy utterly eludes me.)  Even so, the game played favorites-- clearly Celice is supposed to go with Yuria Rana, and I think FE6 pushes Lilina moreso than Roy's other options.  Then come FE7, the two male Lords have three marriage options each; in Eliwood's case, the game again is pretty overt about Eliwood/Ninian... and in Hector's case, I personally think that the unlockable Hector/Lyn content was intended as a hint along the same lines.  But, as with Celice and Roy, you cannot say that any of the possible options is True Canon.

Then we get to FE8, wherein Eirika continues the proud pimpmaster tradition by being able to snag Seth, or Saleh, or Innes, and arguably Forde (hey, they have a paired ending, which is more than Rennac gets with L'Arachel).  Her brother, on the other hand, gets two actual marriage options-- Tana (whose support conversations are, IMO, off-putting and cold), and L'Arachel (which the game script doesn't really seem to take seriously).  Of the two, the script seems to be pushing Tana... but Eph's interactions with her just don't sound convincing.

Tana, you're still just a child at heart, aren't you?
No, I meant it as a compliment. Because you're so young, your words have such a simple, honest purity... I do appreciate your affection.

Whoa, my heart is just melting.  :/

Compare that with this: 
We grew up like brother and sister, but you were always the one helping me. I was able to come this far because you were always there for me, to support me and cheer me up. Nanna, once this war ends, I'll go look for Lachesis as well. And when I find her, I'm going to ask her directly...for your hand, Nanna... (Leaf, FE5)

Or this:
I want to see your smile more than your power. (Roy to Sofia, FE6)

Or this: 
Ninian, I love you. That will not change, no matter what may come...
I don’t care what your secret is-- I will still feel the same. If something troubles you, let me sweep it away. (Eliwood, FE7)

Not that there aren't other unromantic supports that end in a marriage, but the issue with Ephraim is that both of his marital options are... unsatisfying.  And as for his other paired endings...

1) With Eirika.  Take that any way you wish.
2) With Myrrh.  Explicitly cast as a big brother/little sister relationship echoing earlier games.

His other supports are with Forde, Kyle and Duessel; none of these come across as epic bromances, much less romances.  But there's more warmth in his supports with these three than there is in his supports with Tana.  Also, please ignore Lyon's corpse behind the curtain.  We don't have time for that tonight.

Anyway, all of this has bothered me for a while, but I'd never really thought of the possibility that there was actually something wrong with Ephraim.  So, I'll be thinking that one over for a while.

All this has made me reconsider the Tana/Ephraim!fail piece I drafted out a while back.  Maybe I will write that one up after all.

Comments

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Greener is probably a sockpuppet account. I almost guarantee it.

I agree that "idiocy" is a bit strong of a word to use, but I'm getting sick of Boron and their own idiocy to bother calling out Red Damian's use of the word.

If Greener isn't a sockpuppet...idk. I'd have banned his stupid ass, too. Nobody says so many offensive things "on accident". :U

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

Pffffft so true.

Seriously, Greener's "true" identity? That's the biggest fandom mystery at this point, simply because I know of so many people who want to throttle him. Myself included.

(Yeah, I'm petty and still haven't gotten over that "Indian" comment yet.)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Well, he up and admitted his M.O. when he first arrived, is doing just that, and is getting away with it because of this insistence on giving him the benefit of the doubt. Nuh-uh. He's trolling. Quite successfully, I might add.

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that he's a troll, for the reasons that I mentioned previously. I can't imagine why his nonsense is being tolerated. I firmly believe in the whole "do not feed the troll" thing.

That's an interesting point about Ephraim though. I've always thought that his romantic options were poor, especially when you compare his romantic choices to his sister's possible romantic partners (And her supports with them). I definitely don't think that he's uninterested in women in general though, but I could see the possibility that he might have intimacy issues, especially considering his supports with Tana in which he's surprisingly distant with her, in my opinion.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I want to say that he x-referenced PW fandom when he first arrived, which would be a strong indicator that yeah, it's the guy you recall.

I can't imagine why his nonsense is being tolerated.

Apparently the mods don't know trolls when they come out from under a bridge with club swinging.

Considering his supports with Tana in which he's surprisingly distant with her

I do wonder if there are nuances to the Japanese script that did not come across, but yeah... he seems distant and even chilly. Hardly a sign of future success.

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

I want to say that he x-referenced PW fandom when he first arrived, which would be a strong indicator that yeah, it's the guy you recall.

Sounds like him. Same background, same/similar name, and the same behavior that he used while in the Ace Attorney fandom. It would be too coincidental for it be someone else. I guess he needed new turf on which to troll. That's sad. :( I shall continue to ignore him.

I do wonder if there are nuances to the Japanese script that did not come across, but yeah... he seems distant and even chilly. Hardly a sign of future success.

I would be very interested in finding out if there were any significant differences between the English and Japanese script in reference to the Ephraim/Tana supports. This wouldn't be the first time a poor translation has led to unintended implications in the script.

[raphiael]

I'll admit that a lot of my ideas re:Ephraim stem from my feeling that no one comes out of that game unscathed. You don't go from, what was it, 800 years of peace into sudden devastating war (complete with zombies and other hellish beasts) without some kind of consequence. I mean, that can be said for just about any FE, but I just got the feeling that Magvel was more messed up with that massive downeriffic ending. There's no magic Lyon revival, no amazing miracle that saves Grado from doom, and there's no way the amazing broship the countries had before the war is going to remain completely intact. I mean, there isn't a whole lot to back it up (rated E for Everyone, after all), but his chilliness toward Tana and indifference, save for a physical attraction, to L'Arachel, are both things I put toward that for Ephraim.

Even putting Lyon and all his possession antics aside, which are probably enough to royally mess with a guy, I think Orson's madness may have also had an impact on Ephraim, to an extent. Presumably, he was someone Ephraim trusted, given he was taken along with two close friends in his guerilla escapades. Being betrayed by him and then finding out it was for a talking corpse-wife? And then having to deal with said corpse wife? Uhhh yeah, that might screw a bit with your perception of love.

But again. As far as canon goes, Ephraim just goes on to be a super awesome king, and all that.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

but I just got the feeling that Magvel was more messed up with that massive downeriffic ending

Mm... I think Archanea pretty inarguably wins the "most messed-up" sweepstakes. The war there lasted about ten years, all told, with a tiny break during 606, and at least five of the seven main countries are canonically described as "devastated," ruined, annihilated, and so on. (Also, Archanea appears to be have been a supremely crappy place to start with-- definitely the least desirable FE continent to be beamed into.) And the FE3 ending is definitely a downer compared with the endings pf FE2 and FE4 (5 is a bit different, since you can argue it didn't actually happen). Actually, one of the alternate endings in FE3 is the absolute worst ending in FE that I'm aware of-- not as bad as Chapter 5 of FE4,but seriously not good :/

But-- and this is my sincere opinion-- FE3 was essentially recycled as FE8. Yeah, the dark critters come outta FE2, but the underlying story, point for point, is Monshou no Nazo all the way. FE8's strengths lie in all the subtle things, the characterizations and the little nuances, and yeah that's all new. But the basic foundations of it aren't. And while FE8 introduces some spectacularly dark new things, some of the darker moments again (IMO) have reference points in the earlier game.

Uhh yeah, that might screw a bit with your perception of love.

I'd always thought of that more in terms of its impact of Seth, but you do make an excellent point.

As far as canon goes, Ephraim just goes on to be a super awesome king, and all that.

It doesn't say he's happy, though. Says that for Eirika, but not for her brother.

Anyway, your ideas interest me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[raphiael]

Oh no, it's certainly not the most messed up. I'd never stopped playing a game out of sheer distress before I got to chapter five of Seisen, for example. (Actually wait, that isn't true, I stopped FF7 at one point because Sephiroth scared the crap out of me. But that's a different sort of distress.) Can't really speak for Archanea, overall, but from what I've seen/read, I absolutely see the parallels, no question about it, even as a noob to the whole thing.

Yeah, Seth is definitely up there on the messed-up list, after everything. Which is probably why the ~perfect knight~ idea irks me.

Pfffft my ideas are founded largely on sleep deprivation.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

But that's a different sort of distress.

HEH!

(Oh yeah-- you asked somewhere else if FE3 was rendered unplayable by time. Nope. I think of the Japan-only games, only FE1 is unplayable, as 2 received a nice new translation recently. And if you play 11, you don't really need to play 1 unless you really want to LOL at the NES graphics.)

Which is probably why the ~perfect knight~ idea irks me.

Dunno if you've shared notes with Myaru yet, but she's in this camp as well.

I had something else I wanted to tell you re: your FE8 ideas, but I managed to forget it in the night. I'll probably remember when I'm driving down the freeway or something...

[raphiael]

Ah, excellent. I just set up the NES emulator on my PSP, so I'll probably give it a go when I finish the few I'm partway through, as I'm curious about the comparisons now.

Myaru and I are on the same page about so many things that it isn't even funny. I can't even describe how happy I was with her Lucius fic, given that most of the stuff out there for him is just. . . dreadful.

Pfff I can see it now -- "okay here's the exi-- ZOMG, IT WAS ABOUT GHEB!"

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

Greener = Gunlord. Pay him no mind.

And I admit that yonder thread (and associated discussions on the FL) have made me wonder who I would hand to Ephraim as a pairing. Hmm. I have no answer for that yet.

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

lol

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting point about Ephraim...I actually thought his interaction with L'Arachel was amusing and somewhat cute, and I did like the scene in chapter 19Eph where Tana was able to pull him out of a heroic BSOD. (I wish their interaction overall had been more like that...the Eph/Tana supports felt so out of character for Tana. Her other supports and the rest of the game paint her as a fairly reasonable girl with a stubborn streak, but the Ephraim supports pushed that aside for "ZOMG EPHRAIM PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEE" and Ephraim being "ffs go away and let me bitch about Innes some more").

But considering how hard he tried to keep up the calm, badass warrior persona, I'd be surprised if he DIDN'T turn out a little messed up after the whole thing. Especially considering how much darker his scenes with Lyon were compared to all the Lyon/Eirika scenes. :/

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I actually thought his interaction with L'Arachel was amusing and somewhat cute

I think the L'Ara supports are amusing, but they're not especially... deep. I don't see a real emotional connection there, just a physical one. Though I guess L'Ara is hitting on him, sort of, by the epilogue.

the Eph/Tana supports felt so out of character for Tana

Yes. Yes, they did.

Especially considering how much darker his scenes with Lyon were compared to all the Lyon/Eirika scenes. :/

I think a lot about Eph route was darker, personally. Yeah, the stuff with Ismaire and Carlyle was bad, but... Myrrh and her father? That was seriously awful.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I like the idea of them forming an actual connection, but...I think it's obvious which twin L'Arachel REALLY has a girlboner for. XD

Oh, definitely. And we actually get to the heart of what caused the trouble in Grado...chapter 14Eph never fails to give me chills.

(Also because I'm a horrible person I used Myrrh to deal the final blow to Morva.)

btw, I hope you don't mind my randomly popping up in your journal like this from time to time. XD

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I think it's obvious which twin L'Arachel REALLY has a girlboner for

Heheh. InDEED.

I hope you don't mind my randomly popping up in your journal like this from time to time. XD

Nope. Your contributions are always welcome.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

"Tea Club" will always mean something completely different in my mind.

(Though I could totally buy her wanting to set up a threesome with both twins.)

Thanks! *beams*

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

I don't really think there's anything wrong with Ephraim--I always saw him as one of the sane few among a sea of crazies (lol, that's the one reason I love FE8 so much: there are so many odd characters XD)

In contrast, I've always felt that Eph was the most realistic-- or at the very least the least idealized--of all the FE protagonists (of the ones I've played). He's not overly hotheaded like Hector, but at the same time he flat-out tells his sis that a part of him is driven to fight and enjoy battle. He's the classic strategist warrior-general, which is why I like him, but his romance IQ...well, not quite there. XD I don't see him as a romantic person, which is not to say I don't think of him as a loving person. It always seemed like his priorities were on ending the war and subsequently rebuilding and he just had no interest in forming a relationship while everything else was going on. We really don't have a baseline either, to judge how he approaches romance in peaceful times (other than the flashbacks to him w/ Eirika and Lyon)

(I've never shipped Ephraim/Tana either, personally; he just doesn't seem that into her. XD That marriage would be a good example of a purely political one, IMO.)


Hehe, I ship Eirika/Forde, and I'm completely unashamed ;P Eirika's a hundred times the playa that Roy will ever be. Roy has that inexplicable, incomprehensible Justin Beiber magnetism to him. ...okay, that was a low blow. I apologize, Roy.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I always saw him as one of the sane few among a sea of crazies

I saw him as pretty sane myself. I mean... Eliwood? Is gonna have problems. You don't run your girlfriend through with a sword and just get over it... even if she does come back from the dead. Marth? Look, the damn script says he has problems. Ike? I haven't formed a solid opinion, but I don't think the number of Ike-gets-PTSD 'fics out there are completely out-of-character.

But Ephraim seemed a) old enough at the time all hell broke loose and b) together enough that I didn't think he would end up a twitching mess. Though, seriously, I do think his route contains a higher level of OMGWTFBBQ awfulness than Eirika's route. Yeah, Eirika had to deal with Ismaire's death, but Ephraim had to take on zombie!Vigarde. And watch the man crumble to dust. Plus Ephraim knows the truth about Morvas.

Anyway... I think I prefer competent!Eph (somebody has to be competent in this whole gang of weirdoes), but I did enjoy seeing Raphien's take on him.

he just doesn't seem that into her.

Nope. Not a bit. I can believe her as a childhood friend. I'm not disputing that. But I don't see a trace of romantic interest there on his part.

Hehe, I ship Eirika/Forde, and I'm completely unashamed

I like it, frankly. Sure, the text doesn't state they get married. It doesn't state outright that Innes marries Vanessa, either.

Okay, that was a low blow. I apologize, Roy.

HAH. I guess that makes sense. The Justin Bieber of Fire Emblem.