Regarding Celice
Aug. 15th, 2012 04:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mark_asphodelNot sure how I feel about the guy.
And I say "guy" and not "kid" although even his age is a little murky. Based on internal FE4 dating-- Sigurd's comment that Celice is "not even two" in Chapter 5 plus the seventeen-year time skip-- Celice is pushing nineteen in Chapter Six, close to twenty by Chapter Ten[*], and thus firmly in the class of adult lords along with FE3!Marth, FE10!Ike, and Sigurd himself. Yet he's presented as being only a year older than Leaf... who turns sixteen in 776. Celice starts off on his quest in 777. Something does NOT add up here.
Celice has a lot of good qualities. He's not an impulsive, reckless idiot. He's not a bumbler. He doesn't know a lot, and he has to be led, but it's nothing close to the ignorant and passive presentation of Marth in FE3. He listens to advice. He's thoughtful. I realize these are mostly attributes presented in the negative, an absence of objectionable traits, but that's basically my problem with Celice. There's not a lot about him that sticks out; he's a curiously passionless leader. While some of the supporting cast are characterized by flashes of anger and worse, I think the biggest reaction that Celice shows to anything is when he seems grossed out by the idea of people worshiping him. He's neither hot-blooded nor cold-blooded... just tepid. Maybe it's the game's way of showing how Celice deserves his exalted position, that he's above it all, but it makes it hard for me, personally, to ever squee about the guy.
And, of course, Celice makes love like he makes war. Regardless of which girl you pair him with, there's no heat being generated; his affections for Lana or Lakche or whomever you choose don't really seem much different from his non-romantic fondness for Julia. There's certainly nothing like Marth's tongue-tied confession to Caeda or Eliwood's grand declaration to Ninian. There's not even the slappy-kissy sort of heat. The individual quirks of all his lover conversations in the final chapter are dictated by the girl (cunning Patty, so-sorry-for-Julia Lana, irrepressible Fee) while Celice is just... nice and thoughtful and mostly serious and neither objectionable nor exceptional in any way. Fee says he's "like a dream," but that's kind of the truth-- Celice is a teenager's hazy dream of The Perfect Guy-- no edges, no innuendo, catering to the needs of each individual girl instead of imposing his own presence on the dialogue. Leaf, OTOH, has priorities that clearly consist of WELFARE OF NEW THRACIA!!11 >>>> wife. His chosen woman, whether Nanna-Janne-or-Tinny,
[Leaf got softened up in FE5, wherein he dodges a good-on-paper political marriage in favor of Banging My Troubadour Sister 101. Nonetheless, I think it's safe to say he will never be Cuan Jr. when it comes to pleasing his bride at his kingdom's expense.]
I'd compare him to Roy, another low-key Lord, but Roy has something critical that Celice doesn't: friends. Celice has no bosom buddy; if he's in thick with any of the Tirnanogue kiddies, we never see it. If he develops a friendship with Aless, we don't see it. He and Leaf are predisposed to like and respect one another, but-- Leaf's raging inferiority complex aside-- we don't see them function as any sort of dynamic duo. They meet up in Chapter 7 and Leaf spends the entire rest of the game hanging out with his own people, concerned with his own problems. I think two of Celice's most personable moments are his late-game conversations with Shanan and Oifaye, not with anyone in his own age group (the secret conversation with Mana is good, though). But he doesn't have a Wolt or a Merric, much less a Hector.Or a Soren.
Of course, he gets a ton of screen time with Levin, but they're not really... friends. That dynamic's too complex, and Levin's the dominant character in it.
So, Celice. He's not a bad character or a poorly-written one, and I suspect that his isolation is partly deliberate. He's the Imperial Prince, the Child of Light-- it's hard to be bros with the Messiah. And being The Child of Light likely means that Celice, by design, is supposed to be exempt from the dodgy behavior that some of his peers and subordinates engage in. He's not openly fantasizing about crushing his half-brother's skull or strangling Alvis with his bare hands. Celice doesn't hate. Celice doesn't rage. Celice doesn't [fill in verb of your choice here].
I might like him more if he did.
* Chapters Six through Nine only take about a year, which seems implausible until you remember they spent almost all of that time messing around in the Thracian peninsula.
**This actually explains the canon-blessed status of the otherwise oddball pairing of Leaf and Tinny-- she's basically the Princess of Alster (Miranda who? Miranda what?) and makes a lovely political option for Queen of New Thracia, whereas the girls who don't offer Leaf any advantage on his home turf don't get blessed. FE4!Leaf would probably marry Corple if he thought that would help solidify his kingdom.
[If Celice was indeed born in 759, it'd have to be in the early months, with Leaf born toward the very end of 760. One calendar year apart, but 18+ months apart in time.]
Celice has a lot of good qualities. He's not an impulsive, reckless idiot. He's not a bumbler. He doesn't know a lot, and he has to be led, but it's nothing close to the ignorant and passive presentation of Marth in FE3. He listens to advice. He's thoughtful. I realize these are mostly attributes presented in the negative, an absence of objectionable traits, but that's basically my problem with Celice. There's not a lot about him that sticks out; he's a curiously passionless leader. While some of the supporting cast are characterized by flashes of anger and worse, I think the biggest reaction that Celice shows to anything is when he seems grossed out by the idea of people worshiping him. He's neither hot-blooded nor cold-blooded... just tepid. Maybe it's the game's way of showing how Celice deserves his exalted position, that he's above it all, but it makes it hard for me, personally, to ever squee about the guy.
And, of course, Celice makes love like he makes war. Regardless of which girl you pair him with, there's no heat being generated; his affections for Lana or Lakche or whomever you choose don't really seem much different from his non-romantic fondness for Julia. There's certainly nothing like Marth's tongue-tied confession to Caeda or Eliwood's grand declaration to Ninian. There's not even the slappy-kissy sort of heat. The individual quirks of all his lover conversations in the final chapter are dictated by the girl (cunning Patty, so-sorry-for-Julia Lana, irrepressible Fee) while Celice is just... nice and thoughtful and mostly serious and neither objectionable nor exceptional in any way. Fee says he's "like a dream," but that's kind of the truth-- Celice is a teenager's hazy dream of The Perfect Guy-- no edges, no innuendo, catering to the needs of each individual girl instead of imposing his own presence on the dialogue. Leaf, OTOH, has priorities that clearly consist of WELFARE OF NEW THRACIA!!11 >>>> wife. His chosen woman, whether Nanna-Janne-or-Tinny,
[Leaf got softened up in FE5, wherein he dodges a good-on-paper political marriage in favor of Banging My Troubadour Sister 101. Nonetheless, I think it's safe to say he will never be Cuan Jr. when it comes to pleasing his bride at his kingdom's expense.]
I'd compare him to Roy, another low-key Lord, but Roy has something critical that Celice doesn't: friends. Celice has no bosom buddy; if he's in thick with any of the Tirnanogue kiddies, we never see it. If he develops a friendship with Aless, we don't see it. He and Leaf are predisposed to like and respect one another, but-- Leaf's raging inferiority complex aside-- we don't see them function as any sort of dynamic duo. They meet up in Chapter 7 and Leaf spends the entire rest of the game hanging out with his own people, concerned with his own problems. I think two of Celice's most personable moments are his late-game conversations with Shanan and Oifaye, not with anyone in his own age group (the secret conversation with Mana is good, though). But he doesn't have a Wolt or a Merric, much less a Hector.
Of course, he gets a ton of screen time with Levin, but they're not really... friends. That dynamic's too complex, and Levin's the dominant character in it.
So, Celice. He's not a bad character or a poorly-written one, and I suspect that his isolation is partly deliberate. He's the Imperial Prince, the Child of Light-- it's hard to be bros with the Messiah. And being The Child of Light likely means that Celice, by design, is supposed to be exempt from the dodgy behavior that some of his peers and subordinates engage in. He's not openly fantasizing about crushing his half-brother's skull or strangling Alvis with his bare hands. Celice doesn't hate. Celice doesn't rage. Celice doesn't [fill in verb of your choice here].
Celice. Doesn't.
I might like him more if he did.
* Chapters Six through Nine only take about a year, which seems implausible until you remember they spent almost all of that time messing around in the Thracian peninsula.
**This actually explains the canon-blessed status of the otherwise oddball pairing of Leaf and Tinny-- she's basically the Princess of Alster (Miranda who? Miranda what?) and makes a lovely political option for Queen of New Thracia, whereas the girls who don't offer Leaf any advantage on his home turf don't get blessed. FE4!Leaf would probably marry Corple if he thought that would help solidify his kingdom.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-15 09:16 pm (UTC)I have seen some comparisons made between Celice and Eliwood, given the whole "gentlemanly" demeanor, but I think you pinned down exactly why that didn't click for me. Eliwood might be a romantic, but there's still a lot of him in his romantic interactions. There isn't so much with Celice.
Actually, that makes me think -- Roy's "harem" conversations, outside Lilina, are a lot like that, too. Maybe that's a more fair comparison, especially with FE6 going on about Eliwood as a knight, rather than as his role as marquess.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-15 11:46 pm (UTC)Yeah. It's not like Celice is just a bunch of hero tropes, or sugary squish. He's not a bad or inadequate protagonist. I can't slag him off completely, but I can't embrace him, either. And I'm dumbfounded that anyone anywhere could lovelovelove him as a character. I don't geddit.
I don't have a sense of what Celice would do in an actual, substantial argument with any of his potential wives for instance-- how do they sort out the big problems? How does Celice deal with the middling problems that don't go away with a smile and a kind word of encouragement? (Sigurd and DeeDee presumably never had problems, because Plot Fairy.) Whereas with Leaf, I think it doesn't take all that much stretching to imagine the kinds of issues he and Nanna/Tinny might face and how he'd conduct himself. If they came to him crying because Aless/Arthur needed help and could they head on out with half Thracia's army and help Lord Cousin/Lord Brother, I think it's a fair bet the answer won't be what Mrs. Leaf wants to hear. Celice? I dunno.
Actually, that makes me think -- Roy's "harem" conversations, outside Lilina, are a lot like that, too.
I was thinking of this when looking over the Chapter 10 lover conversations, yeah. I'm not sure if the cookie-cutter nature of Roy's exchanges are worse than Celice's all-things-to-all-ladies conversations, but they evoke the same kind of frustration.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-16 08:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-16 11:22 am (UTC)Can't do much else with him, either.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-16 12:07 pm (UTC)*steeples fingers*
Sounds like a recipe for madness in old age, if you ask me. That, or he's begging for a stronger, more forceful person to supplant him when the timing's right.
no subject
Date: 2012-08-16 12:14 pm (UTC)I admit my headcanon has always had something going terribly wrong for Celice later in life. Given the potential for monkey-business with his half sister, he's always seemed to me a potential latter-day King Arthur dealing with a Mordred situation (same goes for Joshua in FE8, minus the incest). Still, unlike with many other lords, there's a kind of haplessness to bad scenarios involving Celice, a sense that it's not something coming out of hubris or recklessness or other bad actions on his part, but more the result of ignorance and Shit Happens.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 09:45 am (UTC)I'm curious about this. What happened with that? Did Josh have babies with Natasha AND Marisa?
no subject
Date: 2014-02-05 01:55 pm (UTC)