Meta Month, Day 19: Coercion and Sacrifices

[mark_asphodel]

This is kind of an intersection of fan-interests wrt Fire Emblem and personal experience, because personal experience is, after all what we often bring to the table when writing.

Nine years ago, I moved cross-country to be with my fiance, who is now my most excellent spouse.  I packed up my stuff, or a good chunk of it anyway, said good-bye to the folks, and left California in the U-Haul, doing an about-face on the journey some of my ancestors took in the Conestoga wagon back in the day.  I was leaving home-- uprooting myself from home-- and knew it.  There wasn't really any question of going back if the whole thing didn't work out.   

While my new state of Michigan is still foreign territory in many respects, and likely always will be, it's home now.  I love my house, and my town, and enjoy the network of meaningful interactions that make up daily living.  The history and culture of the place interest me, as both an alien and a resident.  The landscape and the climate, while not what I'm used to, have their own beauty, real and compelling.

I'm not Cloud Nine happy all the time-- who is?-- but there's a lot of be content about.  Satisfied about.  Pleased with.

So I do take it a wee bit personally when I see it asserted in fandom that Character A could never be happy with Character B because (gasp!) she (and it's usually "she") would have to leave home and everything they care about, and they don't belong wherever they're going.

O RLY?

Excuse me for thinking it's something of a slight to the female characters to assume that they're such fragile creatures their little psyches can't a cross-continent move to with some guy they might, you know, actually love.  Especially when I don't think I've ever seen anyone protest Ike/Soren on the grounds that it's cruel to Soren to have to follow Ike to goddess-knows-where.  (Someone, somewhere, has likely lodged that complaint, but I've not seen it.)  There appears to be an assumption that male characters can choose to go wandering, or to take over this country or that empire that has nothing to do with their birthplace, and that's OK... but if a female character crosses the mountains for the sake of some stupid guy, well it's borderline abuse.

[And yet the most extreme example of this, Eliwood/Ninian, does not attract the same criticism that I've ever seen.  Go figure.]

But this isn't really a pairing rant, it's a love rant.  Because, actually, love does make a difference. Having the choice that you exercise makes a difference.  I was hauled off to Tennessee by the parental units against my will at age 7 1/2, spent ten years biding my time in what I termed "the Babylonian Captivity"[*], and bolted at the first opportunity.  Hate that place.  Hated it so much I never managed to assimilate-- I fought it.  California was home, the promised land, the place I wanted and needed to get back to, by any means.  And yet, after four years of university in said promised land, I was able to pack up and move on, because the person I loved and wanted to share my life with was rooted elsewhere.  It was my choice, though.  I could've gone back to Tennessee.  I picked the great unknown instead.

It's hard, often, to be so far from my own family.  (And sometimes, it makes things much easier!).  It's hard to be outside of the actual climate and territory that is "home" to me.  Going back to California, in the handful of times I've returned, has always been deeply, sometimes paralyzingly, emotional.  But when you add up the years, I've been away from there for two-thirds of my life now.  Being there marked defining periods in my life, both as a child and a young adult, but so has my time in Michigan.  So did Tennessee though mostly in bad ways.

I made a choice, for both calculated and for thoroughly irrational reasons, and I stuck it out and don't regret it.  I've had some of the most difficult years of my life here... and many of the most rewarding.  So, yeah, it does hit me a little bit personally when I see someone claiming that Character A couldn't be happy, no no never, because Lyn-in-Lycia or Eirika-in-Frelia is just wrong, and implying that these ladies are somehow not acting of their own free will, or in their own best interests.   Well, it could be wrong.  It could be coerced, or miserable, or a puddle of pointless self-sacrifice.  It could be character-building, horizon-expanding, and deeply loving and fulfilling, too.  It can be whatever you want it to be-- you're the one writing the meta, or the story.  All canon does is allow for these things to happen.  

But a home, a place to belong, is often what you want it to be, too.  And sometimes, you do encounter a person that's worth abandoning your own personal promised land.  You might even discover a new one along the way.   

* Overdramatic child that I was, this was an x-ref to the Avignon Popes and not the oppressed peoples of Israel under the Babylonians.

Comments

[amielleon]

I haven't seen that complaint against Ike/Soren ever before, not once, but at the very least I think that it would be an unquestionably false one. Ike is more home to Soren than any physical location on Tellius. I'm not thinking of any other pairing off the top of my head where the moving party is so unattached to a physical place. Lyn loves Sacae and reminds us of that with every other line. As Eirika loves Renais. Ike/Ranulf is comparable, perhaps, as Ranulf is quite invested in Gallia. Unfortunately there isn't the same breadth of examples in m/m relationships, but I believe that whether or not this pairing is exceptional, there's a gender-based slant to it.

--

In my opinion, the assertion that Character A would have to give up too much and could never be happy is a radical knee-jerk reaction to something else that was quite a problem: When it was asked of her to ditch everything, her own home and interests and history, to live so differently with some guy.

There's the cultural belief among the Chinese peasantry that when a woman marries, she is no longer part of her childhood family, and is now an accessory to the man's family. That's the vibe I get.

And you can't help but wonder about how lightly Natasha abandons Grado to get with a guy.

I definitely agree with the difference between a coerced move and a choice. But I think there's an inherent problem in that the will of the characters are orchestrated by the developers, and the developers' bias can easily paint a happy face on something that wouldn't have been so pristine.

I hated the ending to Disney's Tarzan. Jane had a tourist's introduction to the jungle. She had experienced a visitor's pleasure. As a person she should have known that subconsciously, held some trepidation toward the ugly things might lurk there unknown to her, before leaping from her life into quite another -- all before the first year of newlyweds' syndrome had worn off!

--

I think it's worth sustaining the notion that the culture in which a character grew up is important to her. But I agree that this perspective can definitely be taken too far, and perhaps has been. (I don't particularly remember seeing it myself.)

I suppose it's just like that newer misconception about Soren that I hate more than the first. Soren's not a weak waify uke! He's a strong capable self-confident person! Just as wrong, but in a way that's less universally recognized and opposed.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

but at the very least I think that it would be an unquestionably false one.

Well, that was intended as a bit of absurdity. Why would Soren want to stay in Tellius? Now, Rafiel and Nailah...

When it was asked of her to ditch everything, her own home and interests and history, to live so differently with some guy.

I can understand that, but while the loss of independence and identity is definitely something to be examined (the deeper you go in FE series history, the worse that particular angle gets), I think the reaction I've seen in some corners is unwarranted, and another case in which fans are kneecapping the characters they claim to love and turning their "strong females" into victims.

and the developers' bias can easily paint a happy face on something that wouldn't have been so pristine.

Or people can be imposing their real-world biases onto a fictional world where flying horsies defy everything we know of physics. It's like the importation of church-imposed homophobia onto, say, Elibe, using the excuse of "Hey, medieval Europe." Yeah, you can do that; yeah, it can make for a rich fictional experience... or a really trite and hackneyed one. Again, IMO with some of these issues it's a lot more about the fan than about the canon.

And this particular issue strikes me as insulting for personal reasons. I admit that on the front end.

[amielleon]

Oh, okay. Didn't catch that -- I thought a m/m example and its fanfollowing would in earnest be interesting to examine.

The Hatari migration as presented in canon is a little odd to me. I came up with a rather elaborate bit of headcanon to explain it and I might end up writing that this meta month, since the doujin I was saving it for might never end up being written.

--

I agree that it's an overreaction. I hadn't quite thought about how that actually depowered the female character, though, and I thank you for showing me that.

Or people can be imposing their real-world biases onto a fictional world where flying horsies defy everything we know of physics.

Well... psychology is something I'm not willing to leave behind under the pretense of fantasy. Our cultural beliefs of how much a homeland should mean are contemporary, but the experience (if done right) is forever.

And if the experience is depicted poorly, go wild.

[raphiael]

Re: Natasha, I still can't quite make sense of that, but it seems to be more of a power thing than a gender thing in her case. There's a lot going on there, I think, more than just her leaving Grado for ~love~.

/offtopic

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

And you can't help but wonder about how lightly Natasha abandons Grado to get with a guy.

Man, why does Natasha get so much crap in fandom?

[amielleon]

We're just jealous of her Borscht belt buffet.

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

And her harem of Russian nuns.

Respect.

[raphiael]

Probably the same reason Priscilla does: "weak"/"passive" female, tons of male supports and no female ones (thus the feeling of "skankiness" or "using men" or what have you). . . .

Personally I think they're both pretty awesome, but that seems to be the common sentiment :c

[raphiael]

This is a sentiment that's always confused me a bit - especially when there's a double standard. Like, the old Lyn-in-a-castle argument; why is it terrible for Lyn to be "cooped up" with a noble life, but not for Kent or to a lesser extent Florina to leave their home behind for her desires? That bit also ties into the exoticism of Sacae, I think, so it's a little harder to quantify as just a sacrificial issue. Sacae is treated as sacred, whereas everywhere else is just dirt. (I'd still like to see a story where she's with Kent or Florina and stays in their home instead, but I don't write Lyn well enough to try it. But Manna did touch on the idea a bit recently I think.)

I think there's an element of romanticism in it as well - the idea that the man is meant to "sacrifice" to protect/serve his lady, and all that, the same mentality that makes knight/princess pairings so popular. People seem quick to flail at the idea of Eirika leaving her home to be with Innes (though it's played as positive for Saleh usually) - no one seems to worry about the fact that Seth would probably not be able to retain the position he's worked his entire life for, and seems to really love, if he was to be with her.

I'm. . .gonna stop rambling now, because this probably doesn't make much sense.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

(I'd still like to see a story where she's with Kent or Florina and stays in their home

see now, my memory is bad and you and sri are both evil but which one of you planted that idea in my head the other week. >_> it still hasn't gone away

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

It could've been both of us. :P

[raphiael]

It's an idea I frequently derp about, ahahaha. But, I dunno!
As she said; it was probably both of us.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I'm. . .gonna stop rambling now, because this probably doesn't make much sense.

No, it makes sense. There are different facets of the issue, but I definitely think there's a double standard in play. And sometimes it strikes me as every bit as sexist as what it's claiming to protest.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Iiii don't know what to say about this really but I will say that

1. love can be pretty badass, and doing something for love might be cliché but it's also real and doing so doesn't make "doing it for love" invalid in any way, shape or form.

2. some people just make up their minds to never get used to another place, but I'd like to think most people aren't like that.

3. I forget what i was gonna put here.

That said I could probably blather on about Lyn's attachment to sacae for like hours, and maybe I will in a meta nah too lazy. But the short of it is: I've been thinking, lately, that she loves the place so much because, like you mentioned, the good memories she has of it. And she's got dreams, too, that she might have a hard time letting go (revenge, which Wallace did but she might want to "see for herself")(reforming her tribe), but overall I view Lyn as kind of naive and though mature at times (and under certain situations etc), she's still just a girl no matter how you slice it. (Girl as in, not emotionally matured.) By the end of the game, who knows? I think it DOES say something that all her endings except those with lords send her back to the plains (which means Plains win over Caelin any day of the week for any number of reasons, which is interesting all on its own). But what it means could be anything, honestly.

blah blah I was gonna say more but I'm tired and HAVE NO IDEA WHERE MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT WAS HEADED

anyway this was an interesting read. I feel defensive, though. NOT SURE WHY. lawl <3

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I think it DOES say something that all her endings except those with lords send her back to the plains (which means Plains win over Caelin any day of the week for any number of reasons, which is interesting all on its own).

Yes, it's interesting that Plains win over Caelin, especially as one might expect her to form some good memories of having family and friends in Caelin... after those last few months alone on the plains after the massacre. But it seems that she doesn't.

I understand that the call of the Plains is very strong for her, but it doesn't make the choice to stay with either Eliwood or Hector bad on its own. Eliwood or Hector could BE that thing that tips the balance in favor of Lycia-- and that could seriously be enough to make it worth the sacrifice. To say "never" about either of the scenarios just strikes me as well, not giving the characters enough credit.

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's interesting that Plains win over Caelin, especially as one might expect her to form some good memories of having family and friends in Caelin... after those last few months alone on the plains after the massacre. But it seems that she doesn't.

Granted, in addition to the plains holding special meaning for Lyn, when it comes to her characterization, there's a lot of focus on the Sacaean part of her heritage and, in contrast, very little regarding her Lycian blood, so I guess that focus on the more "exotic" aspect of her has a lot to do with that perceived notion of the plains winning out over Caelin/Lycia. Personally, I see that as the source for a lot of the romanticism regarding Lyn's return to Sacae, whether it's with Kent or Rath or Florina, or just on her own. One of the things about Lyn (and, to an extent, the rest of the Sacaeans), I think, is that there's a not-so-subtle emphasis on the idea of the "noble savage" to her--at least, when the story focuses on her--and the idea of her returning to the lands she loves is, admittedly, a nice one.

Another thing that could explain that is just how resolute Lyn is in her beliefs, and just how selfish she is/can be, too. Manna did a nice job touching on that in her most recent fic--especially because, going with the idea of "noble savage", the idea of Lyn being selfish (even unintentionally so) isn't something you see all that often.

And now I'm rambling. Oops.

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

Well said.

"Home" is something that means something different to everyone, so how a character would react to their expatriation depends on the character him or herself--and the writer writing them.

The romantic in me really does want to say omnia vincit amor.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Well said.

Thanks. I almost called this "on coercion and victimization" because I think that angle, the sense that these female characters somehow can't be making these decisions as a free and positive choice, is the root of what irks me. Yes, they can.

The romantic in me really does want to say omnia vincit amor.

Well, some couples really are incompatible, and some people are too damaged to work with anyone. There are plenty of reasons not to get behind any of these pairings, after all.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Are there any male characters who long for a specific homeland? Now I'm wondering if there are. I mean, it happens most to women, but I think a lot of these women talk a lot about how they love their homeland. So now I wonder how many male characters (who can leave their homeland) speak just as highly of it.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

So now I wonder how many male characters (who can leave their homeland) speak just as highly of it.

Camus, ha hah. Man has issues. Like being dead and then not.

Hmm. A few supporting characters from the early games popped into my head, but it's more like, say, Sain relocating to Ilia-- they're not THAT stuck on their homeland. Gordin moving out of Altea after FE3 was a little surprising, given he left his brother and his country behind, I guess. But it's hardly a Natasha situation where he seemed super-passionate about his homeland before.

Instead, the guys seem to get massive amounts of territory on top of their homeland-- Alm feels deeply about his village but gets all of Valencia, Ephraim cares about Renais but has Grado dumped on his plate, Marth is all about Altea but ends up with the entire continent and apparently relocates to Pales. Leaf gets all of Thracia, but that is actually what he wanted... and I don't recall if Celice talks much about his actual home territory of Chalphy or not. He gets the entire Grandbell Empire and palms Chalpy off onto Oifey. So the most of the male lead don't really get to go "back home" the way Eliwood does, but that's because they have even more than what they started with.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Rafiel and Nailah were made for this topic. Rafiel has compelling reasons to stay put in the forest, but instead he goes back to Hatari after the war, even though he discovered his family was alive and well. The whole thing illustrates your point perfectly; Rafiel migrates because he loves her, and only stays in Serenes if she dies in-game.

The time gap between her return to Hatari and his, though, that's interesting too. I'm trying to write a story about what happened there, and failing hard, but I think it's far more "romantic" that he drops everything, including the rebuilding of his clan, to go back to his wolf queen.

Maybe this is why fans ignore them. No hurt/com-- wait a minute. :/

Anyway, I agree with you, having done something similar myself. I didn't go halfway across the country, though. Home is where one's most important people are.

[amielleon]

Oh! That's what Mark meant with regard to Nailah and Rafiel.

Whenever anyone brings up Hatari characters and relocation my mind goes immediately to the migration.

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

Word, to everything.

Going to lurk and comment on things, now.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

My wife lived in Texas most of her life, yet she also uprooted and came here to be with me. Granted, I, myself, am a transplant from Kentucky, but (almost) nobody who lives in this corner of Ohio really wants to be here, anyway. (I always long for Lexington. Always. I don't think anything's ever going to change that.)

Good reference to Avignon. :-) Quite a fun (well, dark, bleak, and plague-filled) period to study.

Funny, I always imagine Kent going off to be with Lyn in Sacae, but almost never any of the reverses (e.g. Lyn staying for Eliwood).

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Lexington is a pretty place. My second cousin was a priest there. Might still be; haven't seen him in about five years.

Funny, I always imagine Kent going off to be with Lyn in Sacae, but almost never any of the reverses (e.g. Lyn staying for Eliwood).

Well, there are plenty of reasons not to stick Lyn in a castle, especially if the actual pairings involved aren't one's thing. Lyn/Eliwood has been and remains pretty meh for me[*]. Lyn/Hector I like just fine, but neither of them are characters I particularly adore and so the "slap/kiss" dynamic goes down easier than it would've had I genuinely latched on to either of them. It's not something I usually gravitate toward.

I just don't like it when these scenarios are treated as though they turn Lyn into an oppressed victim of the hateful patriarchy. Particularly when ALL of the marital choices for Hector and Eliwood are unconventional and subject to pushback from society's finest... and when the flip side of Kent joining Lyn on the plains often adopts a highly romantic view of what Kent would go through culturally.

As Raphi said, it's not that people don't like these pairings, it's the double standards often used to support or attack them.

* I thought "One Year" might finally be that fanfic that presented the case for it, and admit to being disappointed when Ninian came back into the picture. I was hoping to be convinced of Lyn/Eliwood by somebody, somewhere.