For all you meta people...

[mark_asphodel]

 Ike/Soren is not technically a slash pairing.  Ike/Soren stories are not technically slash.

Discuss.

Comments

[raphiael]

Mm. I think it depends on one's definition of "slash", really.
Technically speaking, there is nothing stating unequivocally that they are a couple (though the same could be said of a bajillion other "pairings", so if you're going with "slash=noncanon gayness", it technically still is - even with supports and endings and all of that.
If you're going with "slash=two fictional dudes getting it on", it definitely is.
If you're going with "slash=out of character boy on boy love tiemz" (which is usually where my mind goes with the term, personally), then, well, they've got that base covered in fandom, sadly enough.
So I can't think of any meaning of "slash" that wouldn't really cover Ike/Soren in some fashion.
Mmm I'm so not good at words tonight.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I was thinking more along the lines of the first definition... and I am drawing here off of many, many navel-gazing essays and discussions from 10-12 years back. If "classical" slash worked off subtext in the relationship between (usually) explicitly heterosexual males, Ike/Soren is working off the actual game text-- I do believe that their "paired ending" is the equivalent of the traditional FE Lord Marriage ending, given that Ike doesn't have any canonical het options.

So, given the essence of "traditional" slash (subtext) and textual evidence for Ike/Soren (very, very strong), I would argue that it's not a "slash pairing" and that the traditional framework for viewing and writing slash doesn't necessarily apply.

[raphiael]

I definitely agree there - but at the same time, that goes into some iffy territory, especially with the paired ending piece. Personally, I think it's extremely viable, and far more viable than saying "Ike gets with -girl he has no ending with-". But I don't think I could call it - or Ike/Ranulf, for that matter, truly canon. Just because FE as a whole tends to be fantabulously vague.

This is, however, working off one game+ending spoilers for the sequel, so.

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

Raphi basically said what I wanted to say; school and stress and my bouts of vindictive bitchiness today have left me less eloquent than I'd like. Urgh.

[r-amythest.livejournal.com]

I'm with Raphien.

I suppose if you're speaking of "slash" in a way that there's a culture and identity attached to it, Ike/Soren is technically not slash.

I must ask to what ends this dissociation is made, though. It brings to mind Roy Cohn's line in Angels in America: "I am not a homosexual, I am a man who has sex with men."

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I must ask to what ends this dissociation is made, though.

These days, it doesn't much matter. Basically, I saw a 'fic calling itself "pre-slash" and that reminded me of what a serious exercise writing and defending slash used to be, and how all the terminology once mattered, at least to the subset of fandoms that I followed.

And I stand by the position that I/S, like many anime and videogame same-sex couples, doesn't fit the old-school formula for slash. Does it matter? Only to pedants.

[r-amythest.livejournal.com]

I remember reading some self-righteous essays on the distinction between yaoi, shounen-ai, slash, pwp, and lemon that I thought were illuminating at the time. Now, I feel like the generalization of these words is just a part of language evolution and it's quite futile to insist that everyone use the words "correctly".

It's an interesting conversation to have, though.

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

I thought "slash" was a general term for all m/m or f/f pairings? Or is this incorrect?

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Not when I started in fandom, it wasn't. The "serious" writing communities I was in circa '99-01 were all about viewing slash in a sociopolitical-academic sense (this was back when ALL fanfiction was generally deemed illegal and probably immoral and there was a helluvalot of self-justification going on).

Like I said above to Raphi... traditional slash explored the subtext in a relationship between media characters who were usually presented as explicitly heterosexual. I would argue that Ike/Soren is anything but.

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

I know that this probably won't add anything relevant to the discussion, but when I read the above the first thought that crossed my mind was "Ike is really a girl?"

I have no clue where that thought came from - there's no logic (that I can see) to it.

As for definitions of slash... wow, some people put a lot of time into defining things. That is all that I can say about that. Raphien does a good job of laying out things above.

And I don't care enough about the subject to actually put too much thought into it. And there you have my two coppers.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

As for definitions of slash... wow, some people put a lot of time into defining things

Fanfiction used to be SRS BZNS. Now it's used as a viral marketing ploy.

And I don't care enough about the subject to actually put too much thought into it.

Heh. Basically, I saw a story on FFN that called itself I/S "pre-slash" and I thought, "Wow, pre-slash. That brings back the memories."

And then I decided to go all wanky and provocative.

List of people who have read way too much Michel Foucault for their History of Sexuality course:

[kanthia.livejournal.com]

I'd argue that slash (separate from femslash) is fanwork with male-male love (romantic or sexual) produced by a primarily (but not exclusively) heterosexual female community for the purposes of exploring sexual resistance while not necessarily transgressing heteronormative gender lines.

In which case I think that Ike/Soren can be considered slash, especially if Soren is gendered female, which he often is. Even though you're totally right that we end up canonically with a really intense romantic friendship sort of deal.

Re: List of people who have read way too much Michel Foucault for their History of Sexuality course:

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

especially if Soren is gendered female, which he often is.

This I think is totally correct. If Soren is gender-coded as female in a fanwork, then it's definitely classical slash. But in the cases where he isn't...

Re: List of people who have read way too much Michel Foucault for their History of Sexuality course:

[kanthia.livejournal.com]

I actually had an original, longer comment before Firefox crashed and dumped it with something to that extent. I agree that when you're looking at fic where Soren's really masculine aspects come out (like his tactical side) you start leaving the slash zone, for something more general.

Which I guess means that the conception of Ike/Soren isn't slash, but the execution usually is. Yay fangirls! o9

Re: List of people who have read way too much Michel Foucault for their History of Sexuality course:

[r-amythest.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, I'm of the mind that any modern Ike/Soren AU worth its spit better recognize that Soren's 90% likely to be the breadwinner.

Re: List of people who have read way too much Michel Foucault for their History of Sexuality course:

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Tell me more of this.

Re: List of people who have read way too much Michel Foucault for their History of Sexuality course:

[r-amythest.livejournal.com]

Well, you know.

Ike: Charismatic guy with muscles but not brains and too much bluntness to rise through the ranks.

Soren: Diligent, insightful, analytical, and willing to flatter when it's important.

I don't think it takes too much meta to realize that Soren's going to be landing the good money in modern times.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

...And here I thought "slash" was just a fancy term for yaoi. Well, well, well. You learn something new every day.

To be honest, I'm wondering if the definition hasn't changed over time to mean a general same-sex pairing deal. (Kind of like how "drabble" has sort of evolved into "really short snippet" almost taking over the term of vignette, while I see things that are 3k words long saying they are vignettes.)

This would render the original definition into "Classic Slash" territory. At any rate, this is hardly my area of expertise, but! I did like what Kanthia said. How a huge percentage of "slash" is written by heterosexual females. I also daresay a rather large section of homosexual females write slash (or yaoi)-- which I really don't understand.

Either way, I did notice with most of the heterosexual female authors (and even some of the bisexual or homosexual female authors), Soren is relegated to Girl Duty, and this rings very true of your "classical slash".

So I agree that Ike/Soren itself is not your classical slash, but the way it's oftentimes written? Definitely shoves it into that zone.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

And here I thought "slash" was just a fancy term for yaoi

Heh, no. Slash is a Western term that came out of TV fandoms in the 70s-80s. "Yaoi" is a specifically Japanese term that has its own genre conventions. Honestly? They should NOT be interchangeable.

But, the terms have evolved over time, degrading the same way that the concept of "Mary Sue" (which, like slash, originated out of Star Trek fandom) has evolved and become far less meaningful.

But I'm old-school and I like to be pedantic sometimes. :D

[measuringlife.livejournal.com]

/found this while randomly LJ searching.

Perhaps not by the original definition, but definitions tend to slide and change. Often it's when newer fans come in, and misunderstand the term, or assume it is a farther reaching term than it is, and thus it becomes generalized. A good example for this is yaoi. The term itself means purely PWP type stories, but people rarely remember that, and it's become sort of a blanket term for all of the anime m/m side. Like yaoi, slash has been appropriated from a very specific type of writing to a blanket term. Even canon gay pairings are referred to as 'slash' if you're not in a Japanese centric fandom where they might get called yaoi.

Time marches on, I guess? You can say the same in other groups of non-fandom activity. Terms evolve as time goes by, until they're unrecognizable as what they once were.