Eliwood/Fiora Question

[mark_asphodel]

 No, nothing to do with crazystuffs.

From Marcus and Lilina's B-support in FE6:

Marcus: Lord Eliwood loved his wife deeply. And one night...before the two became engaged, Lord Eliwood suddenly disappeared from the castle. When he returned to his love three days later, he presented her with a beautiful white flower which only grows in the snowy highlands. It was the flower which she loved the most.

Lilina: Lord Eliwood is so...romantic. Sigh... Now look at Roy...

Uh... wouldn't "snowy highlands" kind of point to an Ilian bride?  I guess it would fit an ice-dragony maiden, too.  Maybe.

But not Lyn.  Oh, no.  Totally not Lyn.

Comments

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much why I'm convinced that Eliwood's bride is either Ninian or Fiora, the flower thing. (I saw a story a long time ago where Florina was Roy's mother, which was also pretty awesome.)

what no i'm totally not incorporating the flower thing into the fiora/eliwood thing i'm writing whatever on earth would've made you think that?

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Ditto. FE6 definitely rules out Lyn, if nothing else.

[kittykatloren.livejournal.com]

At the risk of getting shot by everyone in the fandom... xD Lyn/Eliwood is... I just did their support and ending in FE7, in my attempt to get all supports/CGs, and I have to admit that they are NICE together. I feel like in the time period, their marriage would be likely if not expected, and that they would be reasonably happy with one another. They're very close friends already, share the same ideals, work well together, trust each other... All the things, in short, necessary for a functional relationship.

That being said, however, I do still think they make better friends. Best friends, really, as close as a brother and sister. Since I OTP Hector/Lyn (again contrary to most in this LJ community lol) I don't really ship Eliwood/Lyn, but I don't hate them, really. If we're going on pure which-is-more-canon basis, you're right, Lyn totally doesn't fit with those lines in FE6. But in the which-is-more-canon argument, there's a strong case for Hector/Lyn being the most "canon" based on Hector's Story.

However, I know that kind of point is what annoys most people here about Hector/Lyn shippers. xD Hence why I avoid that. I really don't care which is more canon, I just like Hector/Lyn.

ANYWAY so sorry for rambling on your post, that all just spilled out! Haha. There's not many pairings in FE7 that I don't like, actually. Eliwood/Fiora and Eliwood/Ninian are both awesome in their own ways. ^^

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

They're very close friends already, share the same ideals, work well together, trust each other... All the things, in short, necessary for a functional relationship.

This is all true. I think they have a lovely friendship-- as you said, close as brother and sister. In a timeline where Ninian leaves Elibe, I can see Eliwood turning to his best friend/"sister" for support and companionship. But I don't buy it as a romantic relationship. And I do think Eliwood is, as Lilina says, a romantic. I don't think he'd be happy with a "next best thing" marriage.

there's a strong case for Hector/Lyn being the most "canon" based on Hector's Story.

I agree with this 110%. I don't see why people can take the pointers in the script re: Eliwood/Ninian, or Seth/Eirika, or Ike/Soren, and agree that they're "the most canon" of the options, and then turn around and claim the Hector/Lyn conversations are irrelevant or fanservice or whatever. (Or claim that Hector/Lyn is unfair to Lyn because it keeps her away from Sacae, but embrace Eliwood/Ninian... in which Ninian is separated forever from her brother and her homeland and is certain to die. Yeah, Lyn dies early if she marries Hector, but they don't know that going into the marriage!)

Honestly, it sounds like someone, or several someones, were just really assholish about Hector/Lyn back in the day and soured everyone on it. But just because it attracted some crappy fans doesn't make it a bad pairing. At all.

Hector/Lyn <3

[raphiael]

Well. It's possible Florina liked the flowers as well, and had some dried which she showed to Lyn.
There is that.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but she's still so identified with the plains that I find it VERY hard to believe some Ilian flower would be her favorite thing. It's just a bit of a stretch too far, IMO.

[raphiael]

True indeed. I can't see it myself, but it's worth it as a devil's advocate option.
I can't see Eli/Lyn at all, myself. Their supports are very "just friends", not even "it would be awesome if our territories were connected" friends. The marriage seems like a huge leap to me, but then, I'm not exactly known for my appreciation of the most "canon" pairings either.

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

Eli/Lyn is just another bad relationship waiting to happen, IMO. Though it's not as traincrash bad in my mind as Eliwood/Fiora is, it's still. Not happy. At all.

[raphiael]

Yeah, this.
I like Kent/Lyn a lot, but I can also see Hector/Lyn being a happy relationship, despite the "Lyn stuck in a castle" element of things. I think Hector could relate to her unease in a setting like that, and wouldn't be like "no, do marchioness type things." I see that as remaining a very loving relationship.
Eliwood, on the other hand? The only support that seems to say "I could live with this person in mutual happiness" is Ninian. And even that is tragic in its own way.
Or maybe I'm just inventing ways for main characters to be screwed up. I dunno 8D

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

Yeah; despite being part of the Kent/Lyn circle, I can see her happy with Hector, too. It's just her relationships with Eliwood and Rath that kind of bug me--I don't really see anything romantic in their supports at all. With Eliwood they're pretty much bros (well, Lyn's a she-bro) and with Rath it seems more like a platonic brother-sister relationship, and more familial than amorous.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree it wouldn't be Lyn. I see Lyn happier with Hector. I mean. IDK. Could you imagine marrying someone who was just a friend? Given a choice, I would imagine Lyn would only marry someone she loved.

Anyway, re: Hector/Lyn toward above comment... The extra scenes might make it more likely to be canon, but IMO Eliwood in canon says he loves Ninian. So that's a little different. I don't really take Seth/Eirika as canon-- one-sided maybe? IDK been too long since I played FE8.

I actually like the idea of Ninian going back with her brother. But if she doesn't I don't think it's as big a deal. I mean, she doesn't talk about wanting to go home or anything. Not that badly. I think she would be torn because of Nils, but Nils probably just wants her to be happy. And he would tell her to pick what would make her happiest-- a short life with Eliwood, or a longer one without him. For all we know, both their lives have been greatly shortened by the time they've already spent on Elibe. If you think Ninian can't even live another 20 years in Elibe... maybe she'd only live another ~20 years even on the other side of the gate.

Buuuuuut probably just me.

Like I said, though, I think "canon" is not really an issue. But I feel people think that some things have to be more canon than others? Perhaps so SOMETHING is canon in the game. I guess the way Merric/Elice is canon. It'd be nice to have something be completely canon. (Then again, people might not like that, kinda like a lot of people don't like Merric/Elice. So IDK.)

...hmmm it's just the way Eliwood talks outside of support conversations that makes it seem "more" canon, I guess. If he was courting Fiora or in love with Lyn, surely he wouldn't talk like that about another woman?

But again, haven't played 8 in a while, so I can't remember if Seth and Eirika talk that way, too.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Could you imagine marrying someone who was just a friend?

Sure.

Sexual satisfaction in a relationship is a wonderful thing, but some people don't want or need it, and having a friend/honorary sibling in your life wouldn't be such a bad thing, IMO. Especially if you're basically expected to marry whether you want to or not. Eliwood's gotta marry somebody whether Ninian stays or goes. A dear friend might seem an appealing option-- at least they understand one another.

It doesn't have to be a horrible relationship. But it's not going to be a romantic one, IMO. [And don't ask where Roy came from in that case. Maybe he and Wolt were secretly twins.]

I don't really take Seth/Eirika as canon-- one-sided maybe? IDK been too long since I played FE8.

The game seems to be pushing it (that's the impression I got even during my first playthrough, where I didn't even like it). Same way FE4 pushes Celice/Rana but still provides alternate options.

Buuuuuut probably just me.

I guess it just rubs me the wrong way when Eliwood/Ninian, with all the sacrifices involved, is held up as SO romantic and lovely, but Hector/Lyn gets shouted down with "Oh, no, she could never be happy." Well, maybe she could and maybe she couldn't. Maybe Lyn can't make those kind of sacrifices. Maybe Hector isn't understanding enough to make her want to make them. Or maybe jackass fans just made a lot of people hate that pairing for reasons than aren't terribly consistent. :/

But I feel people think that some things have to be more canon than others?

Well, as I said above, I think the game does tilt the playing field. You CAN have Celice marry any girl in his generation except Altenna (yes, even Yuria, if you trick the game's point system), but pretty clearly he's "supposed" to go with Rana and to argue that he really loves (frex) Lakche best involves some hand-waving.

And the way some characters carry on in their supports with characters other than the love interest creates a pretty strong impression. Lilina clearly has a thing for Roy. Vanessa's crush on Innes surfaces in multiple conversations. Tana's feelings for Ephraim surface even outside of the supports. It still doesn't make me ship Eph/Tana, but I can't escape the feeling that I'm "supposed" to.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Another thought is developing.

I do see Hector and Lyn being close, regardless of whether or not they end up together. They can be themselves around each other. Very much a "no bullshit" friendship that can also be a romance. Hector also strikes me as the sort to be a "cool ex-boyfriend" who stays her friend afterwards. Not that such a thing exists in Elibe, of course.

Roy and Wolt as twins? How about as brothers? :-) Eliwood / Rebecca is one of my guilty pleasures.

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

I guess it just rubs me the wrong way when Eliwood/Ninian, with all the sacrifices involved, is held up as SO romantic and lovely, but Hector/Lyn gets shouted down with "Oh, no, she could never be happy."

Well, Hector isn't really romantic by any stretch; he'd have to work hard at it, unlike the more genteel Eliwood.

And bonding over dead people is hardly romantic. [is shot]

Or maybe jackass fans just made a lot of people hate that pairing for reasons than aren't terribly consistent.

The fans didn't help the pairing any, but I've never supported Hector/Lyn (or Eliwood/Lyn for that matter). For me tis mostly a personal view that their personalities wouldn't mesh in a way that would let the marriage thing work out. They need something to balance out their outspoken personalities and unfortunately... I just don't see them as doing that for one another.

Of course, when I first played FE7, I hated Hector. I've grown tolerant of the big buffoon in recent years (be grateful! XD) and even write him on occasion. But I'm still intolerant of anyone pushing Hector and Lyn together as the 'canon' pairing.

As far as I'm concerned, if there is a paired ending, it's canon or potential canon. This means Innes/Eirika is also canon, despite my personal feelings on the matter. (Seth/Eirika OTP)

Whatever. I'm waxing long at this point.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I've grown tolerant of the big buffoon in recent years (be grateful! XD)

I don't love him, and his fanboys (Hector is the most awesome FE Lord evar and why can't they all be hotheads without social graces just like him! RAWR!) do him no favors. But I do rather like him. I just keep him mind that the entire universe sets him up for failure.

still intolerant of anyone pushing Hector and Lyn together as the 'canon' pairing.

But that's kind of what I don't get. I don't see me, or kittykatloren, or the other people I know at present in fandom saying it's One True Canon, just that what we gather from the script is that Hector/Lyn is on the same plane as Celice/Rana or Roy/Lilina. You have other options that are perfectly fine (and, as you say, also canon) but one pairing appears to be favored by the text. And I have seen this met with truly weird arguments, like the Hector/Lyn conversations merely are "fanservice" and have no import whatsoever. OK, whatever.

The whole Hector/Lyn topic seems to very quickly become very irrational for reasons I don't entirely understand.

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

I can't argue that conversations that exist in the game are merely there for fan-service, since that would be extremely weird? to have only one spot of a fan-service pairing when obviously you have just as many fans that would prefer to see so and so with either Lyn or Hector as opposed to the H/L pairing. There's no logic behind that claim. [Bewildered that anyone bothered to think that up. They were obviously tripping.]

And I suppose I'm not as intolerant as one might suppose from use of the word. Personally, won't read, won't write, won't ship. But I can hold a coherent conversation about it and not be stupidly impolite.

It's a big world out there and there are going to be opinions that differ from mine. Other viewpoints and all that. I won't say that the opinion that you all hold about certain pairings being on another level is necessarily the right one, but it's not worth sitting down and finding something to nit-pick about. If you're happy thinking that way, well, I'm happy that you're happy. [shrug]

And since I haven't reached divine status as of this point in time, I won't claim to have all the answers or to holding 100% correctness either.

TLDR - fail arguments fail, polite conversation for win. ;D

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the dislike always sort of confused me. There's something about Hector/Lyn that a lot of people really just don't like, I guess.

I mean, just given the amount of dialogue and conversations Hector and Lyn have, it's clear that IS went above and beyond to "hint" at Hector and Lyn together but no one's mandating that people ship it and only it (at least, no one who's vocal on ff.net has said that to my knowledge). Also, it's possible people don't know about the special conversations, which are more hidden than just the supports. But at the very least their dialogue was a gentle nudge from IS (a part of me wonders if it was so that the three Lords and Ninian could all be paired with each other XD) I wouldn't call it "canon", though. "Semi-canon"?

What irritates me most are those stories that set up Hector as this underhanded, cheating brute so as to drive Lyn towards another one of her suitors (the sexual-abuser!Hector fic I read once made me RAGE) or worse, that Hector somehow isn't good enough for Lyn. But I don't really hear anyone ever saying "SHIP HEC/LYN OR ELSE!" or "DON'T SHIP HEC/LYN EVER"; I guess it's a good thing that, at least in recent memory, there have never been any truly vitriolic "ship warz" in the FE fandom.

"I guess it just rubs me the wrong way when Eliwood/Ninian, with all the sacrifices involved, is held up as SO romantic and lovely, but Hector/Lyn gets shouted down with "Oh, no, she could never be happy.""

Agreed. That's one of my big pet peeves. Why should Lyn going to Elibe to live with Hector be any different than someone else going to Sacae with her? Why is it worse for a Sacaen in Lycia than vice versa? I've never understood that line of thinking. And in general, I don't really understand how the argument makes any sense. Because Lyn has to leave her home, she can never be happy again? Really? She spent her time in Caelin at a relatively young age, so why couldn't she adapt elsewhere in Lycia after she marries? I mean, IMO there's a big difference between homesickness and just hating your new country.

Sometimes I think a lot of people just don't like Hector.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

that set up Hector as this underhanded, cheating brute so as to drive Lyn towards another one of her suitors

I had the misfortune to read one of those. And it was by an author whose other works I'd liked, so it made me quite bitter. But it's the same principle as with EvilCrazyInnes stories-- demonizing Hector does not validate Kent/Lyn (which was the bent of this particular story). It's no different than a Tactician/Lyn 'fic demonizing Kent! Or a Seth/Eirika story demonizing Innes. It's all character assassination.

And it is entirely possible to write an anti-Hec/Lyn story that ends with a happy redemptive Kent/Lyn or single!Lyn-on-the-plains or whatever you fancy. Exploring the downside of a pairing you're not sold on doesn't have to be in bad faith. But I can safely say that the story I read was not dealing fairly with Hector.

[And, again-- Hector is FAR down on the list of Mark's Favorite Lords, much less Mark's favorite FE Characters.]

I mean, IMO there's a big difference between homesickness and just hating your new country.

As someone living with my spouse about 3,000 miles away from a well-loved home and not regretting it much, I do not like the implication that a relationship in which one half of the couple moves is coercive, abusive, or just plain Not Fair. Now, again-- if you think of Lyn as a brittle and proud and somewhat selfish character who couldn't be anything but a fish out of water away from Sacae, then yeah-- that could be a convincing characterization. It can totally be done. You could also write Florina as absolutely miserable in Ostia, pining for the open air and the snows of her homeland.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Oh also Ninian is from Ilia. Ninian/Florina supports iirc.

Yes:

Ninian: Oh... All right... Miss Florina. Say, Miss Florina, you’re from Ilia, right?
Florina: Um, yes. Ninian, you know about Ilia?
Ninian: Yes... There are white mountains covered with snow, and... I was, um...born there.

And

Florina: So, Ninian, where in Ilia were you born? Because... I was born in Edessa. That’s where the Pegasi gather...at the spring of Pyrene.
Ninian: I... I am not so good at geography... But it was near the tallest mountain in Ilia.
Florina: You mean the mountain of the Ice Dragon?

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

This... was going to be my comment, so I'll just second it.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

*chuckles*

My opinion here must be limited, since I apparently pair Lyn off with everybody (or hint at her being pair-able with everybody), but, yes, I believe that conversation refers specifically to Ninian, though it can refer to Fiora, which is a fun possibility, too.