Subverting the Dominant Paradigm

[mark_asphodel]

Now that I've landed on everyone's B.S. radar for the title...

When I was in Gundam Wing fandom, there were some clear-eyed and rational fans who took a moment to reflect upon how the fandom, or at least the writing end of it, got so damn screwed up.  The most eloquent of these was probably tzigane, a Chang Wufei fan whose 'fics weren't my thing but whose characterization essays (warning for language and discussion of yaoi) are essential for understanding how and why a fandom goes to hell.  Or, rather, how something blatantly out-of-character becomes the dominant take on a character, to the point where canon-faithful portrayals are shouted down, met with tar and pitchforks, etc.  Her essay on Heero Yuy contained an "a-ha!" moment for me when she talked about how successive waves of fans essentially distort the stereotypes crafted by the prior wave.

Circa 2008 I wrote something similar for SSB fandom concentrating on the mutilation desecration popular depiction of Roy and Marth.  FE11 wasn't out yet to confuse people further, but as far as I can tell FE11 hasn't mattered a jot to 98% of SSB 'ficcers, so as far as I'm concerned my take on things from then still stands.  I called the essay "Martian Canals" (x-ref), and my key assertion was that the 'ficcers were so far off base, even given fragmented and contradictory canon, that the "Marth" and "Roy" they were writing about essentially didn't exist anywhere outside of fandom itself. 

I wisely did not post that essay.  Anywhere.  I still thought FE fans were jerks and already figured the SSB crowd didn't care about self-reflection.

I could probably postulate for hours about how and why SSB fandom got so screwy, and why fans latched onto specific OOC takes on Marth and Roy-- which 'fics set the pace, and who borrowed from what, and so forth.  But I'm sure none of you in FE-land care; the end result is simply that we can collectively spot at once when an SSB-writer blunders into Fire Emblem fandom and slaps up a 'fic.  The traits are so clear you can practically write a field guide for it.

But Fire Emblem fandom has its own evolutions and subversions, though on a smaller scale.  I dunno about Tellius, but in the sub-fandoms I follow it usually consists of a couple of people who are really into one concept or one pairing, and suddenly the front page of ffnet's archive has three or four Marisa/Joshua stories on it.  And I think the rise of Kent/Lyn as the dominant Lyn pairing has been discussed many times in multiple places, but the essence of that one is that someone started writing something they liked and it turned out other people liked it too.

I don't think most writers have a mind to hijack a fandom.  I'm certain the early Gundam Wing writers had no idea that "their" Heero and Duo and whatnot-- characterizations based on a handful of fansubbed videos-- would mutate and devour fandom.  But it's an interesting thing to contemplate, particularly when I come across 'fics involving characters I am personally invested in and think, "Is this writer deriving their take on character X from canon, or did they get this from reading other writers' fanfics?"  Because coming across someone else whose take on Character X meshes with yours doesn't necessarily validate your beliefs re: Character X with regard to canon.  It could just mean you were both reading the same 'fics or the same commentary.  It could even mean they read your own story and liked it, and you're essentially agreeing with a reflection of yourself.

Seriously, I once found something in the Fire Emblem TV Tropes section whose wording was identical to wording in a discussion I was having with someone in the comments of my DA journal.  Now, did that other person then turn around and edit TV Tropes, or did some third party come across that conversation and lift a phrase, or did multiple fans in the same small fandom reach the same conclusion independently?  (Said wording is now gone, TV Tropes being what it is-- it had to do with FE3!Marth versus FE11!Marth, and the current text is pared down considerably.)  I've had the same experience at least once with the FE Wiki.  And some discussions in emblanon  have made the whole echo-chamber effect very disconcerting-- I've seen things that sound damn-near identical to my own beliefs, but it wasn't me.  But it's an anon meme, so I don't know if that writer was being sincere, or sockpuppeting, or what.  

So, dear f-list-- what fandom paradigms do you plan to subvert in the new year?  

Comments

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

I had no idea that your journey brought you to us all the way from Gundam Wing fandom! Under normal circumstances, you and I would have to fight, since I am a fan of original Gundam (and its sequels), but I think we are both a little old for that nowadays. ;-)

(Insert, in this space, a long rumination about the peculiarities of Nintendo fandom in general and Smash fandom in particular. If video game fandom is the world, then Nintendo is its United States and Sega is its Japan.)

The thing about FE characterizations, in my own experience, is that I have been able to write the same characters over the course of one very long story and watch how they mutate into forms that, while still identifiable as the original characters, have become something unique to me. 'Tis like wearing the same pair of pants again and again: They become worn to the point where no one else would ever possibly want to own them, but, to the wearer, they are insanely comfortable.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

AC all the way! ;P

No, seriously. Gundam Wing was my main fandom from its US debut until I graduated in '02, if memory serves. And it remains my benchmark for batshit and destructive fandoms, for any number of reasons (hacked websites, forged media sources for fandom hypotheses, coerced "retirements" of major writers and site owners, bizarre hatred of any and all female characters). But the good of it was very good, and it remains dear to my heart.

GW is the reason I became a fan of Hikaru Midorikawa, and why I later went loco when I realized he was in the credits for SSB: Melee and just HAD to find out what character he was voicing... and somehow I ended up here.

They become worn to the point where no one else would ever possibly want to own them, but, to the wearer, they are insanely comfortable.

Heh. That makes sense. I'll say, though, based on my current experience with prompts and requests... Archanea is SO comfortable for me compared with any other FE-verse. I mean, I always knew it was, but I didn't realize how much so until I started writing on demand.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

GW has the distinction of being one of my first anime-on-DVD purchases, and it does belong to the Gundam family. I make a little fun now and then purely for nostalgia, but I do intend to use Duo as soon as I possibly can when the new Gundam Musou comes to my PS3.

(Gunlord is the only other U.C. Gundam fan in FE fandom. This is a fact that I have long found distasteful.)

Midorikawa is of note for Super Robot Wars fans like myself because of the sheer number of characters he voices in the games. That, and he loves playing them, too, so we have rather cheerfully adopted him.

Elibe is most comfortable for me, of course, but I am rapidly becoming accustomed to Archanea despite the way it tends to mutate under my care. (This Marth / Elice business is – !)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Midorikawa is of note for Super Robot Wars fans like myself because of the sheer number of characters he voices in the games.

That's cool.

My #1 favorite Midorikawa character is Souji Mikage from Shoujo Kakumei Utena-- the pink-haired dude in my ffnet icon. That series meant a lot to me in my transition from college to Reality.

This Marth / Elice business is – !

! is a good term for it, I'm sure...

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

The Utena movie, in particular, occupies a place of honor on my DVD shelf. (I got the soundtrack, too.) Appropriately, I also acquired that during my last year at the university, IIRC. "Freedom from this place is yours if you but desire it," indeed.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

GW is the reason I became a fan of Hikaru Midorikawa, and why I later went loco when I realized he was in the credits for SSB: Melee and just HAD to find out what character he was voicing... and somehow I ended up here.

...

are you me?

srsly.

That's how I became a fan of him as well! And I ended up in pretty much the same place, even though I went through a lot of places to get here.

I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

I read those essays as well. I think they should be required reading for anyone who plans on writing in Gundam Wing fandom. Those essays made me realise that I would never want to WRITE in the fandom, for the same reason you stated: canon-faithful portrayals are shouted down, met with tar and pitchforks, etc.

Using my main fandom as an example, someone writes a fic about Character A's past. Character A's past is generally unknown, so you could say he came from a broken home and I could say he was the son of a politician and that guy over there with the funny hat could say he grew up in a colony of women. Either take would be considered 'correct' because the truth of the matter is, no one knows. This fic is so well written and other people agree with what is presented, so then they write that as Character A's past in their fics, and it all goes down the line. It becomes a case where fanon is like the new canon, where the fanon is accepted more than the canon, etc. etc. (Except my fandom usually writes Character A in character, but there are certain things that I think everyone who writes Character A puts in there. Like him liking alcohol a whole lot. And I do this too because--oh, look at this--I saw it in a fic, I liked it, it fit in with my image, and I used it.)

But in a fandom like Gundam Wing, I feel that people cling so hard to their image of So-and-so because it's my precious and all that. I came into Gundam Wing fandom a lot later--two years after it had been played in America, seven or so years after it aired in Japan--so I had a different mind-set I guess. I got into it through the dub (all of one episode) and then I, like everyone else, watched fansubs because subtitled anime was generally unheard of, so you had to find it online. And these fansubs, depending on which group you watched, had different takes on lines and dialogue and blah. At least when I had entered the fandom, there was a lot of dub influence, especially on Heero. The whole 'cold, monotone warrior' came from the dub (at least in part) because the casting director told Mark Hildreth (Heero's dubbed voice actor) to sound that way. And I hated him for that lol And if you never saw the original, well, how were you supposed to know? But since I shunned the dub and still do...

I was a weird Gundam Wing fan anyway. Fandom generally shunned me because I A) liked Relena and B) didn't ship Heero/Duo and C) instead shipped Heero/Relena and the only slash pairings I liked were Trowa/Quatre and Heero/Zechs and D) I didn't care what they thought, I was there for Heero.

As someone who comes from Super Smash Brothers fandom (and someone who ships Marth/Roy), I whole-heartedly agree with you. Many of them would argue, however, that Marth and Roy aren't in their own universes, so their characterisations can be thrown out the window there are different influences. Which would be one thing if you were writing an AU, where they turned out different-but-still-recognisable because of Event A. But most of the time it's an excuse to be lazy. I myself, in my younger SSB fandom days, was guilty of this. I think everyone in the fandom was, because especially when I started writing for the fandom (2003), Marth and Roy were those mysterious characters no one outside of Japan had heard of who spoke Japanese and sounded extremely sexy. If you wanted information, you had to use an online translator or find game scripts, which wasn't as easy back then as it is now. And most people aren't go through all that trouble. As a result, you had all the 'fire and ice' metaphors and shitty slash where I could call Marth and Roy 'Bob and Tom' and you wouldn't know the difference.

(I have noticed that my portrayals of Marth and Roy are different depending on if I'm writing for their original fandoms or if I'm writing Smash Brothers. I think I have my headcanon to blame and the fact that I write modern day AU stuff for Smash Brothers. I wouldn't call my portrayals of them in SSB fandom exactly canon breaking either. I consider them better than what I've seen, hahaha.)

You should post that dissertation. I would read it!

Re: I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

I could probably postulate for hours about how and why SSB fandom got so screwy, and why fans latched onto specific OOC takes on Marth and Roy-- which 'fics set the pace, and who borrowed from what, and so forth.
As I mentioned before, no one knew who these characters were--so they just made things up to make life easier. Maybe they read the trophy descriptions and then went from there filling in all the blanks. I honestly have no idea. I read a lot of fanfic in the fandom before I wrote in it, and I remember my initial characterisations for them being influenced by two fics in particular--"Momentum" (which is really well-written and I still love it, lol) and "When the Raven Calls" (which is no longer around, but I still remember it clearly). I'm sure if you went far back enough in the fandom, you'd get your answers. That's what I did for my current fandom, and it's surprising, to say the least.

I think the rise of Kent/Lyn as the dominant Lyn pairing has been discussed many times in multiple places, but the essence of that one is that someone started writing something they liked and it turned out other people liked it too.
I think that is an example of "if you like something but you can't find fic for it, write it yourself". I will use Smash Brothers for this, but I wrote a series, and the third (chronologically) part has a lot of focus on the kid Smashers (Young Link, Ness, Popo, and Lucas). Next thing I see a lot of people telling me how they've been waiting for a fic where the kid Smashers are main characters, and next thing after that I see an increase in kid Smashers fic. If you like something, but can't find fic for it, sometimes you have to be the first. Whether that's a good thing or not is open to debate, lol.

Kent/Lyn is the same thing. I don't know who started it(probably Manna, lol), but they really liked Kent/Lyn, couldn't find it anywhere, and decided to take matters into their own hands.

I'm certain the early Gundam Wing writers had no idea that "their" Heero and Duo and whatnot-- characterizations based on a handful of fansubbed videos-- would mutate and devour fandom.
I feel that if I were personally responsible for burning down half of fandom, I would never admit it. And I would feel really bad, hahaha.

Re: I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Why do I always get blamed? I blame Kender.

Admittedly, though, when I saw Kender's 'fic (and it had last been written quite some time before I found it, was possibly unfinished, annnnnnnd there were only one or two others in the entire fandom at all (and all were old), I did decide to take matters into my own hands.

I do realize for some people it can seem daunting to step into a fandom and start writing writing what nobody else is writing currently (in my case: KentLyn), but when you think about it, right now it'd be hard to step in and write...say, HectorLyn. It looks like nobody likes it, but the following actually A.) disappeared, 2.) disbursed among other fandoms/sections of FE fandom, or 3.) are wondering when someone's gonna bother writing their favorite pairing.

I kind of get a ":/" face when someone says something like, "OH SO AND SO IS MY OTP", but then they don't really...write them or draw them or anything. That'd be like me claiming HeathPriscilla was my OTP-- I'm not actively writing it or reading it, so...how does that even make sense?

/tangents

I'm sure if you went far back enough in the fandom

This is kinda what I was saying above, I think... It's pretty funny to see how fandom has evolved, and what has become "popular" versus what has become "unpopular". For FE, RathLyn and HectorLyn *always* trumped KentLyn in every battle. In fact, I'd say that KentLyn wasn't even mentioned half the time, had very few fans, and those that did ship it didn't really get much support. In 2010, you can see KentLyn is everywhere, and RathLyn and HectorLyn are nowhere to be seen. Thank God But of course the reason this is is because nobody's writing Rath or Hector with Lyn. <--Getting kind of tired of people QQing about that.

A little "Man I wish there was more of X" is one thing, but "wahhh why doesn't anyone write X!?!?!?!?" is stupid.

Re: I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Why do I always get blamed?
Because whenever someone mentions Kent/Lyn, you always come to mind :P

I do realize for some people it can seem daunting to step into a fandom and start writing writing what nobody else is writing currently
Oh absolutely. Fandom can seem kind of daunting anyway given the fact that some of the people have been around for a long time and followings tend to crop up and 'cliques' form and so forth. It's the same as staring at a pool with a bunch of people who, for the most part, know each other. You want to take the plunge, but you're afraid to. Because they might not like what you have to say--or want to hear it. But if you want something done, you need to jump and take the plunge.

I kind of get a ":/" face when someone says something like, "OH SO AND SO IS MY OTP", but then they don't really...write them or draw them or anything.
Well I feel that some people might just like to read their OTP and fawn over them. They don't necessarily have to be 'active' in the fandom. I just happen to be the type who writes all of their favourite pairings to share my love, but not everyone in fandom is like that. But I get what you're saying, especially if they complain about there not being a lot of fic or any at all and going, "SO AND SO IS MY OTP WHERE IS THE FIC?"

It's pretty funny to see how fandom has evolved, and what has become "popular" versus what has become "unpopular".
In my main fandom, pretty much everything that was written years ago at the start of the fandom is still being written today, by the way of pairings and plots. Characterisation depends on whether there's a Mary Sue and/or the team they're writing for (Weiss fic tends to lean more towards sues and gratuitous 'yaoi' where the characters are mangled so one becomes the uke and the other becomes the seme and they start spouting "I love yous" and ugh get me a bucket; Schwarz fic tends to be more in character, less wangsty, and well-written on the whole; there is no Schreient fic which makes me sad D:). But more or less the fandom hasn't changed much, just produces work that's more or less well-written.

Other fandoms may vary, of course. I know Gundam Wing does and Fire Emblem does. Matthew/Guy used to be all the rage back when I joined FE fandom. Now no one writes it. Same thing with Hector/Lyn (which I never liked) and Rath/Lyn (that I liked but fell out of love for) and Eliwood/Lyn and Heath/Legault and all those other pairings.

There needs to be more Wallace/Vaida fic!

A little "Man I wish there was more of X" is one thing, but "wahhh why doesn't anyone write X!?!?!?!?" is stupid.
The first one gets my sympathy and will make me go, "Oh, I know how you feel, man, I wish there was more too!" The latter one just makes me go, "So why don't you do something about it?!"

Re: I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

"OH SO AND SO IS MY OTP", but then they don't really...write them or draw them or anything.

Some people are afraid to write or draw... or at least to publish the results. Doesn't make them less of a fan, IMO-- especially in hostile fandoms. I didn't publish anything in most fandoms... I knew better than to enter the fray.

Even in Fire Emblem... I dunno, if you liked something, and you saw somebody you perceived as a BNF with a fan club saying it was garbage, and you were used to hostile fandoms where the BNF would rape you... yeah, I'd think twice about posting said unpopular thing.

Re: I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

As a result, you had all the 'fire and ice' metaphors and shitty slash where I could call Marth and Roy 'Bob and Tom' and you wouldn't know the difference.

Actually, my going theory for a while was that the crappy Marth/Roy stories were inspired by equally crappy 1X2. The ones with ice bastard!Marth and hyper-bouncy!Roy in particular.

I have noticed that my portrayals of Marth and Roy are different depending on if I'm writing for their original fandoms or if I'm writing Smash Brothers

I'll still read SSB!FE characters. Some of them are well-done. Most of them aren't. And I'm willing to cut people slack if they're basing things off the OVA or the mangas. I remember reading a very early Ike/Marth story (one of the first, IIRC) that I thought was totally FUBAR until I realized they were basing their take on Marth on the first volume of the FE1 manga. Yeah, that would make a difference...

Re: I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Actually, my going theory for a while was that the crappy Marth/Roy stories were inspired by equally crappy 1X2. The ones with ice bastard!Marth and hyper-bouncy!Roy in particular.
...

*replaces Marth's and Roy's names with Heero's and Duo's*

holy crap, why did I not see this?

No wonder I hate those types of fics, lol.

Re: I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

From "Admiring Martian Canals":

"But if you’re going to take fantasizing about the Prince of Altea to a more active level and start (dear lord no) writing new adventures for him, where exactly to you turn for the characterization?

Well, you can do what a lot of people seem to do and just rewrite old Gundam Wing fics. One Hikaru Midorikawa character can be interchanged for another, right? So the Imperfect Soldier (Heero Yuy) and his long-haired comic sidekick (Duo Maxwell) are repurposed as Prince Marth and his red-haired sidekick Roy of Pherae, who doesn’t even belong in the same continuity as far as Fire Emblem is concerned. But we’re not concerned with Fire Emblem here, are we? And comedy, or sentimental mush, ensues.

I’d bet Gundam Wing was the entry point into fandom and fanfiction for many a fangirl, so it’s not at all surprising to see the same tired Gundam Wing ‘fic-tropes being recycled into various other media bases. And the fanon clichés are usually as inaccurate and inappropriate in the new fandoms as they were in GW to begin with. The flowery descriptions of silken hair and sapphire eyes are bad enough (what teenaged boys even think in those terms?), but at least in GW, the depiction of dour, intense Heero and happy-go-skippy Duo had some vague basis in canon. Well, actually the original Duo Maxwell isn’t happy-go-skippy at all, but by the time you get to the Ground Zero manga, he’s blatant comic relief and drawn like a girl to boot. Does that make it fanfic-for-hire? Could be."

Re: I got a little long-winded [Part 1/2]

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

omg. This is perfect. Perfect. You need to post this. Seriously.

One Hikaru Midorikawa character can be interchanged for another, right?
As much as I hate to say it, I honestly think people think this. Does this mean I can switch Marth for, say, Zelgadis, or Schuldig, or Tamahome, or Xing-ke, or Sou, or or or... Never mind they all have different personalities and the only thing they share is being voiced by the same guy?

Pffffff.

There is a reason why Rule #1 of fandom for me is: "If Midorikawa was in the anime, it is automatically like Gundam Wing."

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I don't think most writers have a mind to hijack a fandom.

I agree. I doubt most ficcers jump into a fandom with the intent to hijack it and warp everyone's views of the characters.

It does happen, though. As fellow writers, it is our job to see canon from non-canon (a la fact vs. fiction) in what we read. I've seen things in fics-- and not just FE fics, because contrary to popular belief I've written for other fandoms-- that I've thought about for a while and decided that, hey, that fits in really well with Character X, so maybe I'll use that myself, too.

It is, of course, also in the way something is presented. When an author presents Character X and Y in Situation Z, maybe the way they're writing them makes perfect sense to all of the readers, and the personalities used there then become widespread fanon-- when in reality (and according to canon) it only fits within Situation Z.

As mentioned...I think it was earlier this year, I myself have been writing some characters OOC due to fanon-- or warped versions of canon and fanon that I couldn't tell the difference between.

Like Samuraiter said, you kind of just get into a groove and it feels comfortable-- so why take off those comfy pants and replace them for a new pair? (Because they're dirty and need washed, that's why.)

Seriously, though, I found that going back and reading source material to re-introduce myself to canon was very helpful. Things I'd sort of overlooked before? I noticed again. (Ex: Kent has a temper.) But this also helped me see where half of my fellow writers also went wrong (I LOVE YOU GUYS I AM SORRY), and have been writing characters as doormats (or in other equally submissive sorts of roles) when in actuality, canon pretty much goes the opposite direction.

I'm tired and rambling, sorry. @_@

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

contrary to popular belief I've written for other fandoms
:o you HAVE? Hahaha, just kidding. (I know you wrote for DBZ and Inuyasha and RoV...)

I've seen things in fics [...] that I've thought about for a while and decided that, hey, that fits in really well with Character X, so maybe I'll use that myself, too.
This. So much. I get that all the time. This is why I love reading a different take on the same character. It gets me thinking and then I go, "Oh, yeah, I could totally see that!" and then next thing know I mixing all these interpretations and that, my friends, is how headcanon is born.

It is, of course, also in the way something is presented. When an author presents Character X and Y in Situation Z, maybe the way they're writing them makes perfect sense to all of the readers, and the personalities used there then become widespread fanon-- when in reality (and according to canon) it only fits within Situation Z.
Yes! Personalities can change when characters are presented with different situations (what if Z had happened instead of Y? What if A had died instead of C?) and yes, you can totally see how it fits FOR THAT SITUATION, but take the characters as they are then and plop them into another situation, and all of the sudden, holy hell, they're out of character!

I myself have been writing some characters OOC due to fanon-- or warped versions of canon and fanon that I couldn't tell the difference between.
This is why I find it's very important to occasional go back and revisit the source material, be it replaying the game, rewatching the show/anime, rereading the book, etc. etc. Because you will find things that you had forgotten or overlooked, things you had changed, and things that were warped due to canon. There is a difference between mixing canon and fanon (and making it believeable!) and having too much fanon and little canon... Or even worse, forsaking canon and having it all fanon. The last two cases require a revisit, ESPECIALLY the last one. Fanon, to some extent, is in everyone's fanfics, but the extent to how much all depends on how much you let the fandom influence you. That is why you need to visit the source material. That's what I need to do one of these days for Weiss Kreuz before I lose my grip on Schuldig and Crawford.

why take off those comfy pants and replace them for a new pair? (Because they're dirty and need washed, that's why.)
I love this. I am totally using it. It works so well. Fandom at first is that pair of jeans you just bought at Kohls and, even if they're Levis (which are insanely comfortable), they're still stiff as hell. But as you get used to the fandom and participate and write long diatribes and meta, the jeans are now well worn, stretched, distressed, and have holes in the knees forming. And the hems of the pants are all frayed. And they're dirty. And now you're so immersed in fandom that it's becoming hard to remember what's canon and what isn't, so now your jeans are filthy.

Time to revisit the source material. Time to take those jeans off and wash them. Then you can put them back on, you can go back to fandom, and you can see it with new eyes.

I'm tired and I'm rambling with you. :D It's what I do, especially about fandom and writing. I r teh geek. (Also I have nothing better to do. Well, I do, I should work on those fics.)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I myself have been writing some characters OOC due to fanon-- or warped versions of canon and fanon that I couldn't tell the difference between.

If you have specific examples, I would find that illuminating.

Like Samuraiter said, you kind of just get into a groove and it feels comfortable-- so why take off those comfy pants and replace them for a new pair? (Because they're dirty and need washed, that's why.)

LOL!

Good one. Very good one.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Sorry, examples...

I'd say half of my KentLyn pieces are more fanon than canon-- I'm sure I could pick out a good chunk of them at least.

On the flip side, I find I write characters like Farina, Serra, Lucius, Vaida, and Hector...how I feel they really are, but fanon has had no impact on how I write them. It's pretty odd, actually.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I'd say half of my KentLyn pieces are more fanon than canon

I'd say that KentLyn fanon is one reason I don't care for the pairing. When I was just starting to broaden my horizons and read Elibe fanfic (because I'd plum run out of Archanea anything to read!), I read a LOT of KentLyn stories that didn't ring true-- the characters seemed very Americanized and contemporary, and I don't just mean modern AUs. And it really turned me off, because these stories were written by authors (yes, plural) who obviously loved the characters, but the characters they loved were pretty clearly of their own creation.

mega tl;dr, I apologize

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with fanon FE characters is really that...well, a person has two choices when writing any FE character, and this is probably more true for Archanea-verse than the others, but...

1.) Roll with ONLY what canon gives you.
2.) Embellish some of what canon gives you, and keep the rest of canon.

Sooo that means a character like, say, Wil-- can be a super optimistic silly guy, or he can be a little more serious. It depends on which set of supports you want to pull from, and how much of which personality you want to pull from. In his supports with Wallace, it's total silliness. In his supports with Rath, more serious but still fun, in his supports with Lyn, more serious.

A better example is Wallace, I guess. Supports with Wil are funny, and Wallace himself is a fairly humorous character, right? But in his supports with Lyndis and also with Kent, he's portrayed as a much more serious, almost fatherly-like figure who is also full of wisdom. And then his supports with Vaida kind of toss that away and make him silly again. So a lot of people see Wallace as "lol comedy relief" and not as anything more.

This gets more complicated between characters like Wallace and Vaida-- silly crazy supports is something they do have, but the characters themselves are probably not always being funny, and something people fail to remember is...half the time (at least) they're likely being serious and both are good, solid, serious characters. I'm sure Vaida has a sense of humor, but...still, using them ONLY for comedic use is fine, but people do forget (likely through fanon) that they're not always that way. It's easier to see just replaying the games, or by reading all of the supports, but if all you see of a character's portrayal in a fandom is that they're silly and crazy, GWA HA HA-ing all over the place shoving manuals of knightly prowess at folks, well, FANON then tends to replace canon. People just don't bother to think on things any further.

I like period fiction but I'm not very good at writing it. The problem I've seen most in fandom's version of KentLyn is, ehhhh I'd have to say Kent's embarrassment, because he always is embarrassed over one thing or another.

Now, this was first derived from the first 'fics I read, and because I read them first, the impression kind of stayed with me. It's not entirely wrong (because of supports) but it's still far too prevalent in fandom, and therefore has become practically FANON.

Examples, I guess...

Kent is fairly serious, yes? Probably more-so than some of the other stereotypical "loyal knight" FE characters, and there are a lot. He's not as hardcore as Marcus, but he's surely not a pushover. In his supports with Wallace, he's serious, CURIOUS, he asks questions and he wants answers. In his supports with Sain, he does get embarrassed, and this is where the "blushing" thing seems to have come from. It's understandable to think he may get flustered quite regularly if Sain decided to be...Sain. In his supports with Farina, she just confuses the hell out of him-- he apologizes for things beyond his control and doesn't know why he's even apologizing. Fiora, he's pretty serious, much like his supports with Wallace. With Lyndis, HE is actually the one initiating all of their support conversations, not the other way around. SHE'S the one acting embarrassed.

So most of fandom has entered this "fanon" sense of mind, where Kent is perceived as being like he acts in his supports with Sain...all of the time. This is a problem because one must remember that he's not OMG SERIOUS until Sain is involved, nor is he embarrassed at every jab Sain shoves his way. In fact, I would go so far as to say that while Sain did get the jump on him via supports, it probably doesn't happen very often. With a friend like Sain, there's no doubt in my mind that someone like Kent (who isn't dumb) would be smart enough to carefully hide things he doesn't want other people to know.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Likewise, I doubt Sain would take every single opportunity to embarrass Kent. A little teasing, sure, probably when alone. But in public? No. I don't think Sain's in it to piss Kent off or to make him feel stupid. Sain's proven himself to be quite logical sometimes, so...yes.

Anyway, fanon has created a Kent that likes to blush and stammer like a Florina, and after a while I realized that I had written too much of that. It's always fun to toss a character into an embarrassing situation, but fanon has taken it too far-- and I daresay it's at least half my fault, because before I hit the FE fandom, I did not take too much time to research characterization before I began writing. I just wrote with what I knew and had read, and didn't bother to recheck it. I do find that fanfiction can change your mind/opinion on things like pairings and characters, not to mention characterization of certain characters, so it's of no surprise to me to see now that I let fanfiction influence a lot of how I myself wrote.

Unfortunately, reteaching myself how to write characters is hard for me. I can hardly take long breaks from fandom without forgetting things. But I recently took the time to look closer at some characters, obviously the most noticeable would be Kent, Lyn and Sain because I write them so much, and I intend to use these new thoughts to my advantage for that novelization if I can crank out more for it someday. (It's such a daunting task, it's very hard to work on.)

For example, Kent has a temper (!!!), he PROBABLY does drink, but if he DOESN'T there's probably a reason (as pointed out in the anon meme), and Lyndis, derpy thing, is very tunnel-visiony, means well, but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IS SELFISH.

I wrote a HectorLyn once where she left him and her daughter for the plains. I was given some spiel about how she wouldn't leave someone she loved blahblahblah. Fine, if that's what you think-- BUT people have been known to get so homesick they can hardly stand it, and it's perfectly understandable and RELATE-ABLE to me, so it's not hard for me to see it. I see how others might not, but I'm not so swayed by affection for people that I won't realize where I am. (Not EVERYONE is happy wherever the person they love is. If I was in love with a guy who wanted to move to some third-world country, NO I WOULD NOT BE HAPPY.) <--Of course that's a vast difference, but the problem is really that if someone does look at Lyndis very closely, they can see she really is pretty selfish. And when she's not, she's opinionated, argumentative, and very driven by !!!HER OWN DESIRES!!! <--exclamation points for awesome emphasis.

I obviously really like Lyndis, but in all those ways I can relate to her. I do realize not everyone can (most people probably really can't). It's hard for most people, especially teens, to imagine not being happy where their beloved is, anyway, because to them TRUE LOVE is still all up in their heads and romance is the name of the game, blahblah. (Dear God I am the most unromantic person ever. I'm not sure if this is bad.)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

It's hard for most people, especially teens, to imagine not being happy where their beloved is, anyway, because to them TRUE LOVE is still all up in their heads and romance is the name of the game, blahblah.
As someone who packed up and moved about 3,000 miles to be with my own beloved, I can kind of see both sides of the issue. On the one hand, I endured a forced move to Tennessee as a child and spent ten years biding my time before I could get the hell out of there and don't regret it a bit, family ties notwithstanding. On the other hand, acclimating to Michigan has been much, much easier. But we were watching The Birds tonight, and just that opening shot of Union Square in San Francisco made me kind of homesick. It's a complicated issue. I am partial to the idea that Lyn would have formed some kind of attachment to Caelin (friendship, connection to Madelyn, maybe some bonding with her grandfather) but wouldn't be happy in Ostia or even Pherae.

I do view Lyn through "Nyna goggles"-- yes, she is her own character, but FE does so relentlessly cannibalize earlier source material (and, come FE11 and 12, retcons early games with middle-game elements in a weird feedback loop) that I do think it fair to at least take archetypes into account in character analysis. And a lot of the things I find frustrating about Nyna (hello, desire) I see in Lyn, and it's frustrating there, too.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this is true. It's always very person-specific, I think. I have always lived in the same place, and other than the weather I really like it here. (I ask myself every winter why I live here. I hate the winter. So. Much. However, I hate humid heat the most, so most southern states are a huge no-no for me, too, and though Ohio summers suck and are moist as hell, they're much better than, say, Missouri summers. Moving clear to Texas is...a bit far IMHO, so I doubt I ever leave.) <--I'm a wimp. Also I hate change, but I'm assuming most people do. It always depends on why you're leaving and the reasons you're leaving.

Of course, I basically struggle with "love" and I almost feel I can't understand it myself despite having written about it a billion times. But that'll be posted on DW probably, not here on LJ. XD

As far as Lyn goes, I do think she would feel attachment to Caelin-- in fact, I'd say it'd be OOC for her not to. But when it boiled down to it, I think she'd pick Sacae over Caelin any day, especially without romantic attachment elsewhere. If she fell for Hector or Eliwood, I could maybe see her caving in to live there, but Caelin? Without a love interest there, there's NO reason for her to stay there aside from obligation...that she didn't already want. <--But I could babble about Lyn and Caelin for pages, so I'll shut up. I seriously hate the "oh hay flowers and rainbows" mentality that people see concerning rulers and the places they rule in Fire Emblem. There will be haters, and depending on how bad/whatever a leader is, there might be a lot of them. I'd imagine Hector might have quite a few haters, himself.

Poor Nynaaaaaaa. XDDDD Should I feel bad for her, at least a little?

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Also I hate change, but I'm assuming most people do.

I hate change. But one person in each generation of my family (on mother's side) packs up and leaves and never really looks back. Great-Grandfather left Italy, Grandpa left Pennsylvania, Mom left California, and I left... everything. Different reasons each time, mind you, but everyone else in the family just kind of hangs out together in a colony. I don't get them and they probably don't get me. :/

And I'll take Michigan winters over Tennessee summers anytime.

There will be haters, and depending on how bad/whatever a leader is, there might be a lot of them. I'd imagine Hector might have quite a few haters, himself.

No kidding. Though I try to make that point in my post-war Archanea stories. Hello, the people have been exposed to a year, maybe more than a year, of anti-Marth propaganda. You think every single person in the kingdom is going to trust him immediately? Nah, it don't work that way.

Should I feel bad for her, at least a little?

Well, yeah. Her entire family was killed and strung up in public and she got to see their bodies afterward. That's pretty hard to get around...

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Though I try to make that point in my post-war Archanea stories. Hello, the people have been exposed to a year, maybe more than a year, of anti-Marth propaganda. You think every single person in the kingdom is going to trust him immediately? Nah, it don't work that way.

Oh yes, this. It's good you try to make this point, by the way. My biggest beef with it is, I guess, at least for FE7... Is the fanon vs. canon deal all over again! I force my hand a lot, rarely letting Lyn derp away from Caelin without consequences of some kind. However, canon states she does derp off into the sunset, so I'm half breaking canon, and half not. I hesitate to say I'm BREAKING it because I feel I tend toward the REALISTIC route-- especially in my headcanon. I only let Lyn get away easy when it works for the story, but it's not because I feel she actually could.

I wouldn't tell someone who wrote a happy-fic about Lyn going back to the plains that they were WRONG for letting her get off scot-free, but I also wonder if people might think I have forgotten what canon actually says. I haven't, I just ignore it. xDD;

As far as Marth goes, hell yes. People would be SO BITTER. I would almost liken it to Eliwood/Lyn/Hector tromping off on adventures, even after Elbert's death. BECAUSE:

-Lyn's grandfather is supposedly dead
-Elbert's dead
-And then Uther dies.

That leaves at least 2 of the bigger Lycian nations WITHOUT. LEADERS. WHAT THE HELL. This really pisses me off/bugs me because it's never addressed at all. Marth has it worse because of anti-Marth propaganda, of course, but especially in Lyn's case, I could see people being PISSED about those three just up and leaving. UNLESS they wanted Lyn gone anyway. But then she comes back and leaves again? So it either has to be assumed that --->SHE NEVER WANTED THE PLACE TO BEGIN WITH and she made this absolutely clear which is why nobody seems to care when she leaves<--- or she was so terrible at being a leader they couldn't wait to get rid of her.

Then again, I feel she'd be more likely to be killed in an assassination attempt if people hated her, and boy I'm sure she'd have haters. FOREIGNERS?! ON MY THRONE? HELL NO.

Meanwhile, Elbert dies, Eliwood comes back to leave again (-_-) and then Uther dies while Hector's out playing. Who knows how the people feel? They sure as hell don't tell everyone they're killing evil and slaying a dragon, because nobody would believe it. So they all look like serious pricks.

Then there's poor Marth who gets a year+ of anti-Marth shoved at all his folks. Well, they might have thought some ill of him beforehand, but anti-Marth stuff is sure gonna make it a lot worse. So when he shows up, they'd have to come to trust him...very slowly. And then any little mistake he made (and I mean LITTLE MISTAKE) would get shoved under his nose, dangled in front of him, pointed out, mocked, et cetera. Sucks to be Marth. I actually feel pretty bad for him. It's not like he doesn't try, I guess? Hector and Lyn never wanted their respective places, but Marth at least grew up assuming he'd get it anyway. Hector assumed, y'know, parents die...well there's a brother, I'll never inherit. And Lyn never thought she'd be an essential heir to anything, let alone a canton.

As far as Nyna goes. Yeah, gotta feel bad for her, definitely. Sadly death/seeing parents die/etc seems fairly common in Fire Emblem. I feel horrible for her, though. Poor girl!

Did you write a thing on Nyna, once, or was that maybe myaru? My memory's super fuzzy, so I can't recall if I saw something recently or not...

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

That leaves at least 2 of the bigger Lycian nations WITHOUT. LEADERS. WHAT THE HELL

Yeah. That's huge. That's a black hole kind of plot hole.

Marth has it worse because of anti-Marth propaganda, of course,

Well, the whole set-up is screwed up. In essence:

Old Dude: ...and our princess is going to marry a foreigner. He'll be our new king.
People: ...
Good!Hardin: Hi.
People: Yay?
Bad!Hardin: Taking over!
Old Dude: Where's Nyna?
Bad!Hardin: Never you mind.
People: This sucks.
Bad!Hardin: Not my fault. Prince Marth is an evil bad person and HE started this war because he wants to conquer the world.
People: DO NOT WANT
[War and stuff]
Marth: Hi. Totally NOT responsible for causing this war and please stop trying to kill me.
Old Dude: (dies)
Bad!Hardin: (dies)
Nyna: Thanks for saving me, Marth. Gotta go now! Have fun ruling my country.
Marth: OK. Taking over world now.
People: Wait... did we just get screwed, or not?

Yeah. I'd have second thoughts about that whole situation.

Also, it's never addressed how the people of Altea feel about having their country raped while Marth is off getting in trouble in Grust and Macedon. Seriously, if your country got trashed when the ruling prince was out of the country, meddling in the political affairs of other countries, and you had no word from him in nearly a year before he showed up with a liberation army... I'd expect some hard feelings from somewhere. Really, now.

So I guess you could say a lot of the hand-waving in FE7 has been a part of the games from the get-go. :D

Sucks to be Marth. I actually feel pretty bad for him.

I do, too. And I didn't used to. I used to actually be kind of ticked off about the ending to FE3, because so many characters ended up dead or miserable or got... nothing. And Marth got the whole continent and the glory and the pretty girl and everything... and so much of it just kind of fell into his lap. It was aggravating! But after spending several years thinking it over, I think he actually got handed a really, really bad deal that just looks all happy and sparkly on the outside. Part of why I liked FE11!Marth was that he seems AWARE that he doesn't really have a very good position. And come FE12 we learn that he's apparently in severe emotional distress, which I guess is better than just blithely going "I'm the light of the world la la la." Maybe.

Did you write a thing on Nyna, once, or was that maybe myaru?

We've both written Nyna stuff. I'm working on "Dark Sun of Desire" and Myaru has some things posted in her writing journal.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

If anyone's hard to pin down for writing, though, it's Lyn. She's both driven and very tunnel-visiony (supports with Hector show that well), compassionate and family-oriented (supports with Wil, the way she treats Ninian and Nino and Florina), a very good friend (Florina's supports), and all of this, and then she turns around and goes quiet in supports with Rath (hate those supports, but they are as canon as the rest!) and goes CLEAN THE OTHER WAY in her supports with Kent that she does in her supports with Hector. (Of course, her supports with Hector are essentially this:

Hector: I LOVE YOU.
Lyn: I'mma beat you in our next sparring match, bitch. BE READY.

So I don't even know.) She goes so far as to *avoid* Kent after he answers her question in a way she doesn't like. Immaturity? Probably. It makes sense. She's super balanced in that way, and could probably be written any way while technically being...in character, but FANON sees her as mostly badass, either due to her stats, or because they only read her conversations with Hector in-game and see her constantly jumping to conclusions and starting fights. Well, yes, she does do that-- but not ALL of the time.

Anyway, what sorts of KentLyn fanon did you see going on I guess? I know you said Americanized/contemporary, but I'm not sure I follow very well. Do you have any examples? Either my or others' works? (You can always PM me.) I'm still working on re-educating my own fanon concerning the pairing, so...

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

FANON sees her as mostly badass, either due to her stats, or because they only read her conversations with Hector in-game and see her constantly jumping to conclusions and starting fights.

Yeah. Well, with a lot of these "contradictory" facets of a character, it's hard to say whether they really are "realistic" characters with multiple dimensions... or just incoherent, poorly written ones. They might be both! Real people WILL behave differently depending on the situation, the power dynamic, the class dynamic, gender roles, and so on. But a good fictional character... especially a good fantasy character with fantasy baggage, isn't necessarily "realistic."

[Then again, this is my particular bitch-fit wrt: FE3!Marth. You have a complex and dirty political landscape, some really fascinating supporting characters, and the protagonist is a Moron Messiah Holy Innocent. Puh-leeze.]

Anyway, what sorts of KentLyn fanon did you see going on I guess? I know you said Americanized/contemporary, but I'm not sure I follow very well.

They seemed like modern people. It was the same kind of "wrong" I get out of a lot of the Tellius 'fic I've read-- there wasn't a sense of being a plainswoman-turned-princess or a knight in a medievalish fantasy landscape. The atmosphere wasn't there. It was like... I don't remember if you're into Harry Potter, but there are Potter 'fics (even by American writers) that get the essential Britishness of the series, and there are 'fics that... don't. And it's one thing when the writer is just being sloppy, but often enough it's more out of love, of identification with the characters, and of deeply involved headcanon having erased real canon.

I dunno. I can dig up examples and PM them if you want.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I feel like the characters are poorly written, not intended to be 3D. As you know, most FE characters contradict themselves so many times in canon that it's just stupid. Has to be poor writing...or a poor, poor attempt at 3D-ness. Don't get me wrong-- having all those facets of Lyn is great for writing her because we see her in X amount of situations already, but... STILL.

You have a complex and dirty political landscape, some really fascinating supporting characters, and the protagonist is a Moron Messiah Holy Innocent. Puh-leeze.

Yeah, that is just stupid, not to mention unrealistic. There are two options here:

1.) Holy Innocent gets slaughtered on the dirty political landscape, or
2.) Holy Innocent isn't really Holy or Innocent, but rather, one of those playing the dirty political games.

Really, two choices are there-- either Moron Messiah (lol, love this nickname now) derps about stupidly until he's stomped into the group by political opponents, or he learns to beat them at their own game. The first option sucks, but honestly, the second one does, too. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right? But in the end, you end up with a seriously warped individual. Good for angst, but anything else? Not so much.

I was never into Harry Potter (AHHH SORRY HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN THE MOVIES I'M A BAD PERSON) but I think I understand what you mean. Unfortunately, most authors (especially myself, I'm one of the WORST) struggle really hard with what I think most people call world-building? Or even just general atmosphere. I suck at it so bad...it's not even funny.

Of course, striking a balance between "this is the world they live in" and "HOLY SHIT ALE IS DISGUSTING CRAP THICKER THAN BLOOD AND NOBODY SHOWERS AND EVERYONE'S ALL HAIRY" is really hard to find, sometimes. I could probably write essays on my KentLyn love, but when it comes down to writing them? I honestly feel they're way harder to write correctly than at least half of the FE pairings out there. Which sucks.

I try to incorporate things into longer pieces that...sort of show atmosphere? But I think more often than not I've failed at it, so maybe I stopped trying.

As far as being modern goes, PMs would be awesome if you have the time to dig up an example or two or nine-thousand. Is it mostly word choices and things like that? My biggest gripe with FE7 is that the characters talk like they're modern, so it's really hard to pick old-fashioned phrases or words for things that were used in, say, our medieval times, but...they're over there and though the worst curse word they use is "BLAST!!" and they say things like "curr" and "moppet"...they are otherwise portrayed exactly as we are, the only differences in characters being that some talk more formally than others.

So. Yes. Examples. Would be epic.

I'm trying to think of how many times I've failed at atmosphere, but it's probably so many times I can't count. All I can think is, if I was into Harry Potter, I would fail at capturing the Britishness of it. Or of anything. My knowledge is too limited-- and that extends to medieval times, despite having books on it for research.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

1.) Holy Innocent gets slaughtered on the dirty political landscape, or

That was, in essence, the very first FE 'fic I ever attempted. Never finished it, never posting it, but that was the idea-- "How the ending of FE3 would go according to real psychology and logic."

Holy Innocent isn't really Holy or Innocent, but rather, one of those playing the dirty political games.

That was kind of my take on things after playing FE11-- or, at least, it seemed like a viable option. FE12 yanks that one off the table, though. :(

But in the end, you end up with a seriously warped individual. Good for angst, but anything else?

/cue extended rant on Elicegate in FE12

I dunno. I was so happy to get FE11 Marth. And so crushed by what I've seen in FE12. You want contradictory? There's stuff in FE12 that just... can't... be overlooked. It's like combining the absolute worst of Moron Messiah with Angsty and Warped, but the player is supposed to be all warm and fuzzy about it. The hell?

I honestly feel they're way harder to write correctly than at least half of the FE pairings out there.

Is it a hard-to-achieve pairing in FE7? Like, one of the ones that takes a million turns to get?

[Heh. Well, IMO Marth/Caeda is really hard to write, because for all the talking they do, it's almost never with one another.]

PMs would be awesome if you have the time to dig up an example

I'll go hunting. Because seriously, it did bug me and did serve as a turn-off for the pairing itself.

My biggest gripe with FE7 is that the characters talk like they're modern

Yeah. That's true... true for some of the FE8 gang, too, and seems to be very true of FE9 which is yet another reason I haven't warmed to it. FE9 just feels weird to me and the characters seem over-the-top and cartoony except for a handful. And it looks like FE12 is going for the OTT cartoony route, too. :(

but...they're over there and though the worst curse word they use is "BLAST!!"

Heh. That's one reason I like the fan-translations for FE2 and FE3. There's some rather more harsh language in play, there. When Alm announces his intention to "crush the bastards" in FE2, it's just... so right.

Also, I saw fragments of a translated FE1 playthrough on YouTube, and it looks like Marth started off as a kind of angry, lippy character. In the scene where he breaks up the (slave) market, he was pretty pissed off and going "What the HELL are you doing?" to the slave traders and that doesn't come through in the FE3 fan-translation, much less FE11. So, given that we know NoA botched things in the FE7 adaptation, you just have to wonder what nuances got missed or distorted.

the only differences in characters being that some talk more formally than others.

Levels of formality, and what they say about a person, is one of those things just encoded so well in Japanese that modern American (or even modern British) English Can. Not. Express. Dollars to donuts there are things in the original scripts that we're missing because we literally have no equivalent.

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

1.) Holy Innocent gets slaughtered on the dirty political landscape, or
2.) Holy Innocent isn't really Holy or Innocent, but rather, one of those playing the dirty political games.

There is a third option, of course.

3.) Holy Innocent has DIRTY POLITICAL MINION to take care of the dirty politics and keep him alive.

^^

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

That's true. Unfortunately, MyUnit isn't really an effective dirty political minion because he's pretty naive and ignorant himself. The idea behind it really could have worked, but the execution is SO not convincing.

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

That's why we have fanfiction. Becuz sometimes the canon path is illogical.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

One of the last good rants I read on FFR before I ditched the place discussed how fanon quickly takes over a fandom to the point where fans think it's canon.

It's all a big popularity issue, really. If a fic is considered "epic" enough and garners enough worship, people will take it and its author as pure gospel. A pairing, a characterization style, a theory...if it originates in a popular fic, people follow the leader and if it gets out of hand enough, people will start to think canon is the OOC badfic and fanon is what really happened.

However, something becoming popular fanon in and of itself isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes canon leaves holes, and a fan will come up with a way to fill them that makes a lot of sense. It's when fans start acting like it's ZOMG TRUE CANON that it becomes a problem.

(Sorry, this is probably VERY clumsily worded, lol. Does it make sense?)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

No, it makes sense. I don't have a problem with headcanon, fanon, whatever it is we all create to fill in the gaps. That's cool. And sharing and spreading "headcanon" like in that anon meme thread is also cool.

Take Cain. I think in your headcanon he gets married to Palla, correct? In penandpaper71's headcanon, he gets married to Catria. In mine, he doesn't get married at all. Who's right? Well, as far as we can tell canon has zilch to say about it, and we can all live peaceably with our different views of Cain. But if one of us became convinced by our own headcanon and started editing the Fire Emblem wiki and stuff to "prove" our point to the world, that would be nuts. But that's exactly what happened in Gundam Wing-- people got so attached to their pairings and their conception of characters that they forged "Japanese" sources to back it up.

Which is just messed up.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Awesome, I was afraid my wording was awkward. XD This is an issue I think about a lot but by the time I got around to replying everyone had said pretty much everything and I didn't wanna be redundant.

Take Cain. I think in your headcanon he gets married to Palla, correct?

That he does. :D

Well, as far as we can tell canon has zilch to say about it, and we can all live peaceably with our different views of Cain.

Exactly. Kain is a character whose future makes no mention of romance whatsoever, so fans can marry him off to whoever they please. XD

But if one of us became convinced by our own headcanon and started editing the Fire Emblem wiki and stuff to "prove" our point to the world, that would be nuts.

I think one Holin/Ayra fan might have done that on a wiki, they claimed the pairing was canon even though people liked to pair Ayra with Lex. And the less said about the Hector/Lyn fans who claim the pairing is "what the real story meant to tell" or whatever, the better.

But that's exactly what happened in Gundam Wing-- people got so attached to their pairings and their conception of characters that they forged "Japanese" sources to back it up.

That happened in Pokemon fandom, too. Some obnoxious Ash/Misty fans claimed there were "secret episodes" where Ash and Misty kissed and got married and had kids. Then some Ash/Gary fans tried to get back at them by claiming all the Ash/Misty stuff was an invention of the 4kids dub and that the creator of the anime HATED the pairing.

As an AAML shipper I know I'd be happy if it were canon, and I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case due to Misty's feelings, but as it stands Ash is still single and clueless. XD