FE12: Elice in Blunderland

[mark_asphodel]

FE12 spoilers and language under the cut.  If you aren't interested in Elice and her brother, you can skip this one.

So, this scene translation from the FE12 Prologue has caused a fair amount of consternation from the fanbase.  The overall reaction from the fans has been, "Elice is a stone-cold bitch."  That was not MY reaction to it, but since it's the common one, let's discuss this first.  If the point of this scene is that Elice is a nogoodnik who doesn't show sufficient love or respect for the younger brother who adores her, what would the intent of such a scene be?  To sap the player's sympathy for Elice so that her kidnapping and metaphorical rape by Gharnef has less impact?  To make her sudden turnabout with Merric (to whom she was beyond doubt condescending in FE11) more of a redemption-- bad sister Elice has been thoroughly broken and properly reclaimed by Merric, in whose care she will leave off her ice-bitch ways and fulfill a woman's true role in life?  It's not unheard-of in fiction, though such a device is certainly repellent.  But I don't think that is the point of the scene, so I'll leave that line of thought with this reductio ad yukky.

Others are more concerned about the identity of the person to whom Elice reveals such sensitive information regarding her brother (I'll get to those details soon enough).  If Elice is disclosing her brother's psychological issues to random young recruits in the Altean Army (this is Prologue 4-- "Chris" isn't even a knight yet), she's being awfully... incautious.  If the info-bomb had been dropped in a conversation with Jagen, or one of the veteran knights like Cain-- or to Merric!-- it wouldn't come across as quite so heartless on Elice's part.  Given the cadet pool turns out to have a traitorous assassin in the ranks, Elice is being incredibly careless.  And that does reflect poorly on her judgment and character.

So, what exactly does Elice say that's so awful?

Well, first off, she warns MyUnit (Chris), in response to some of his fanboyism for the "Hero King," that "the true Marth is a fragile, easily hurt child."  OK.  Pretty standard JRPG stuff, I think, not to mention a throwback to Marth's pure-hearted characterization in FE3.  Also, this meshes with the visual overhaul he got for this installment of the series.

Unfortunately, Elice elaborates, and here we get into a mess.  "That child faced Medeus in the last battle, and won.  That child has grand ideals and a strong will to hold onto those ideals.  However, as you know, you can't save anyone in the real world with just ideals."  [The translator assures us that Elice is in full-on maternal mode with the "child" comments and is not being sarcastic.]

Then we go off the deep end.

"As we speak, people may be losing their lives right now in places we could seldom imagine... Marth cannot save them."

Well, no shit.  He's not god.  Even Chris understands that much-- "As a human, there's a limit to what he can do."

"Indeed, that's how it is. Usually, people take note of reality and make compromises between that reality and their ideals. However, that child cannot do this... he wants to save everyone, from the bottom of his heart. In the war, if even one of his companions fall... that's very hard for him to stand. He controls it with his powerful will, but his heart is hurt and bleeds as result."

Ow.  Ow.  Let's unpick this.

"Usually, people take note of reality..."

Sane people.  It's one of the basic dividing lines between sane and certifiable.

"However, that child cannot do this... he wants to save everyone, from the bottom of his heart"

Really?  Chapter 13 of Shadow Dragon sure indicated otherwise.  Unless "bad people" don't count as people?  

"In the war, if even one of his companions fall... that's very hard for him to stand."

I guess we'll take that on faith, given the lack of reaction shots to anything other than the decoy fiasco in FE11.  And the decoy thing was presented as very much a lesson to be absorbed and dealt with.

"He controls it with his powerful will, but his heart is hurt and bleeds as result"

I can only guess that she's referring to the sort of behavior we see at the end of Chapter 17 and in the finale of FE11, both scenes that set off my alarm bells at the time.  These are the scenes where he's shutting his emotions-- first grief for his dead mother, then his love for Caeda-- down for the sake of duty.
 
"It's very difficult for that child to keep holding those ideals in this harsh world... MU, if you're to become a knight... please, protect that child. Protect his ideals..."

Hold onto that though re: Chris and let's talk about Marth and his issues.

I never liked Marth's characterization in FE3-- all pure heart and merciful goodness and not a lot of education, common sense, or anything else.  He was a total "holy innocent," a character type also termed "holy fool" for a reason.  FE11 appeared to throw all of this out the window, giving us a Marth who was clued in to the history and culture of the continent, was up-to-date on current events, entertained thoughts of hatred for and revenge upon his enemies, and possessed a somewhat snarky sense of humor-- all things noticeably lacking from FE3.  He was also quite rational and pragmatic, making (usually) sensible decisions with the information at hand.  Emotionally-- especially when it came to romance-- he was definitely an awkward kid.  I've long pondered how IS would get the characterizations to jibe, given that Marth's pure-hearted goodness is actually integral to FE3.  I guess a psychotic break is as plausible a means as any of making the elements fit.  Because, seriously, the person described by Elice in this dialogue is, at best, emotionally damaged to the point of severe dysfunction (a traumatized child in an adult body) and, at worst, psychotic (not capable of dealing with reality).  But it's a JRPG, so that's OK!  To make sure those precious ideals remain intact, Big Sis Elice is going to surround her little brother with people who will prop him up.  

And so we have Chris, serving as a glorified babysitter, a minder/psychotherapist.  Chris is there for all the key conversations, is consulted before every battle, is the go-between by which which other army members (even Merric!) can access Marth, and is the deciding factor in HUGE decisions like "let's allow Julian to save Lena."  Never mind that Chris is, as both penandpaper71  and sailorvfan10  have noted, flat-out ignorant of the War of Darkness and the general situation.  Chris is the man running interference, carrying the water, getting his hands dirty, and stepping back into the shadows so Marth gets the glory.  And you, the player, are of course "Chris."  Don't you feel special?

[Note: Chris is of course derived from "Christopher" or "Bearer of Christ"-- the man who carried the messiah on his shoulders.  I suspect that's intentional.]

Elice loves her brother-- her final quote in the game is "I hope you can now find happiness."  She loves him so much she helps construct a show-box to keep him in.  This is all very creepy and disturbing, but not hateful and Elice is not being a bitch.  Indiscreet, yes.  Icy bitch, I don't think so.  She looks at her brother and sees a wounded and deeply unhappy child (I guess the war just really fucked him up) and does what she can to protect him.  And given the role that MyUnit plays, I think we're intended to take Elice's statement at face value.  

Don't shoot the messenger.  Just cringe at the message.

PS: I keep saying that Archanea is fucked up, but DAMN it just gets worse.  And I don't even want to think about how Caeda fits into all this.  Yuk.  Double yuk.

Comments

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

Okay, my first reaction... I laughed my head off. As you know - or I think you know - I'm not a player of Marth-verse yet. (I have shadow dragon, but didn't get far into it... ugh... no story and character interactions...)

But yeah that could get very creepy, now that I take a moment to think about it. Still... even though this sounds like a wrong way to make the player character, I'm still interested to see how this one plays. (keeps fingers crossed)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

FE11 had a lot of characters that weren't developed, but I like the way they developed the handful that got event conversations. I just really, really hate the way the GBA support mechanics function. I think the way the FE12 conversations unlock will be more to my liking.

FE11 is, to me, worth playing for the actual gameplay, which I really enjoyed. I wasn't sitting through endless cutscenes to get to the ass-kicking, and I developed a real affection for characters that leveled-up well, the same as I do in Pokemon (or in Dragon Quest IX). And I genuinely liked the way Marth (and Caeda) were characterized in it... which makes me doubly pissed off about what happens in FE12.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

I really want to know why the hell she told My Unit all this crap. She might as well have told Katarina too, so she could have assassinated Marth or some shit because SHE KNOWS HIS ACHILLES HEEL NOW

Never mind that I thought her conversation contradicted some of the things in FE11. Like the fact that Marth was a big boy and acted like it and wasn't some sheltered child who hid under the bed when the Big Bad Dragon came roaring through. But if this was the path they had to take so there was a reason for Marth to be all 'pure-hearted' and stuff like he was in FE3, IS could have either found a better way to do it, or they could have just continued with Marth's characterisation as it was in FE11. It was a remake after all. Remakes sometimes improve things. Improving characterisations is awesome. Improving them and then doing a 180 spin is not good.

I don't hate Elice at all and tbh I don't really know why people think she's a bitch to Marth now. She wouldn't be saying all those things if she DIDN'T care about him. Yes, she said it to some dude who has jellyfish innards for brains (as I pointed out at least twice in my screenshot LP, which you mentioned) and obviously doesn't know much about his liege's own family or history or anything really (except that there's this king guy named Marth and he's badass). He could say these things to the wrong person (like Katarina). Or he might not understand it because he has a case of the Stupids.

Now if she said these things to Jeigan or Cain or Merric or, uh, Sheeda...or Gordin... OR ANY OF THE KNIGHTS WHO ARE UNQUESTIONABLY LOYAL TO HIM, no one would have a problem. They would merely interpret it as, "Jeigan/Cain/whomever, Marth may act like nothing bothers him, but all this killing business combined with saving the world and not being able to save every last person--because no one is inherently evil after all--makes his heart bleed and it DOES bother him. He is idealistic and sensitive and a little emotionally awkward. ...Please protect his ideals."

Then it would make sense.

But My Unit? No. HE IS A PEON. HE IS A NOBODY. HE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE NEAR ELICE, LET ALONE TALKING TO HER. (Do they not have screening people in Altea?)

besides if she hated Marth or was a bitch or whatever, she wouldn't have wished for him to find happiness. She knew he was unhappy because of all the wars and the damage that they did to him, so now she's hoping that his marriage with Sheeda will lead him on the path to happiness. LOVE HEALS ALL WOUNDS.

TL;DR: I agree with you.

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

tbh I don't really know why people think she's a bitch to Marth now

I could see why people might see Elice negatively based on this scene, although I doubt that was the intent of the scene and it's not an opinion that I agree with. For the most part, what she's saying is not nice and kind of disturbing. She doesn't appear to think very much of him and even if she's trying to be "motherly," which is fine since that has always been a part of her character, mothers are supposed to encourage their children to reach new heights and support them if they need help to get there. All Elice has done is shut him in a box where, hopefully, he can't hurt himself or anyone else. Perhaps if she's that worried about him, she should look into getting him some real help. Chat with Jagen or Caeda or *insert any character who is close to Marth* and see what can be done to help him cope instead of simply telling the not even knighted new recruit to protect his idealism, so that I doesn't have to face reality.

I think that Elice loves her brother dearly and I'm unhappy about the reaction that this comment appears to have had. But this whole scenario has so many issues (The issues are explained better in this entry then I could ever dream of explaining it) and I don't like the way it reflects on Marth or Elice. I think that the "ick" of this probably has more to do with poor writing and planning then an actual attempt to cast Elice in a negative light (Although I wouldn't put it passed IS considering some of the stuff that they've pulled in this game if they thought that they could make the player character seen more important at Elice's expense). FE12 seems to be so good at belittling the canon characters and their accomplishments. -_-

(Do they not have screening people in Altea?)

Apparently, not before My Unit's arrival and then he/she takes that role. ;_; Why? Because the player character has to be the most important character ever. More important then even Marth. ;_;

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think if IS wrote it a lot better, it would have been a lot...uh, more Elice-like. I understand the intention behind it, but I think that a lot of people are reading too much into it, looking for ulterior motives or something.

Because the player character has to be the most important character ever. More important then even Marth.
The legend/story is about Marth, yet he's a secondary main character in his own legend. That'd be like having a Zelda game where Zelda and Link and Ganondorf don't exist/are secondary to some new character. But the legend is about Link and Zelda and Ganondorf.

But poor Elice ;_;

I can already see all the revisionist "My Unit doesn't exist" fics... and all the My Unit/Insert Canon Character Here fics... And all the Mary Sues My Unit's presence has spawned, or will spawn...

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

mothers are supposed to encourage their children to reach new heights and support them if they need help to get there

Yeah. Elice is coming across like a mother in a Pink Floyd song.

FE12 seems to be so good at belittling the canon characters and their accomplishments

But why should you care about that when there's COSPLAY?

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

Elice is a bad mommy. Who knew?

But why should you care about that when there's COSPLAY?

You are right. Silly me. Cosplay is clearly more important then handling the characters in a respectful way. :P

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

She might as well have told Katarina too, so she could have assassinated Marth or some shit because SHE KNOWS HIS ACHILLES HEEL NOW

Well, yeah.

Never mind that I thought her conversation contradicted some of the things in FE11.

Well, painting Marth as a cracked idealist... sorry. The youth who waltzed up to General Lorenz and talked him into betraying Ludwik was not an idealist. The idealists were Michalis and Camus, men willing to go down with their colors flying rather than yield or compromise.

She knew he was unhappy because of all the wars and the damage that they did to him, so now she's hoping that his marriage with Sheeda will lead him on the path to happiness. LOVE HEALS ALL WOUNDS.

I dunno about that. This is Archanea, remember? Love does bad shit to people.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Well, painting Marth as a cracked idealist... sorry. The youth who waltzed up to General Lorenz and talked him into betraying Ludwik was not an idealist. The idealists were Michalis and Camus, men willing to go down with their colors flying rather than yield or compromise.
Marth knows what he's doing. He has a good head on his shoulders. Maybe the fact that Elice was kidnapped for two years and still thinks that Marth hasn't grown up some could be contributing to it, but during that year gap between FE11 and FE12, I would expect her to realise that Marth isn't a naive little fourteen year old boy anymore.

This is Archanea, remember? Love does bad shit to people.
And Marth is a descendant of Anri, who ended up getting scorned by love, so love isn't in the cards for his family to begin with :/ We can only hope that he ends up lucky with love and he doesn't go all crazy from it! :D

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

I agree with pretty much everything that you have to say. This whole scene is just so bad and it comes off as really disturbing.

From what I've seen of this game, poor writing and planning seem to be what is causing a number of the issues. I definitely see it here because the scene could have been handled so much better without losing the overall message with just a bit more thought and consideration. As another example, they allowed Michalis to live, but they don't appear to have put much thought into how this should have changed the story and the fates of the other characters. If Michalis gets a free pass on his crimes, then why not Abel (Whose crime is nowhere near as bad as Michalis') or Hardin (Who does some awful things, but at least has the excuse of being controlled by the Dark Orb, which is something that Michalis doesn't have)? Why can't Michalis recruit Maria considering his whole motivation in Book 2 centered around Maria? Why would anyone tolerate him becoming a king again?

I'm also really bothered by how important the player character is to the story. It wouldn't have been quite as bad if they'd treated the canon characters and storyline with the respect that they were due, but... even if it's unintentional, they don't appear to be doing that. I don't think the intention of this scene was to harm Elice's character, but poor forethought and planning has done precisely that. If they hadn't been so concerned with making sure that the player character was Marth's best buddy who is the one really running the show, then perhaps more thought would have been put into who should be listening to that conversation (There are so many better choices) and that would have helped some. It wouldn't have fixed all the problems, although better writing might have helped that, but it would have at least lessened the blow, in my opinion.

I don't really know what to say honestly. It's nice that they're trying to add stuff, but it's not really okay, in my opinion, if they add things with no thoughts about the possible consequences of adding such a thing.

I might be overreacting. I'm kind of sensitive about this issue right now.

Posted again because of a grammar error. Sorry. -_-

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Why would anyone tolerate him becoming a king again?

'Cause CrazyIdealist!Marth would rather take a chance on Michalis than have him executed or banished, I guess. And given that Michalis apparently conquers another continent, an endeavor in which people presumably die... well, good going, Marth. The road to hell is paved with, et cetera.

it's not really okay, in my opinion, if they add things with no thoughts about the possible consequences of adding such a thing.

I can't disagree. Though the extent to which things have been warped makes it almost a post-modern subversion. Or like fanfic.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Or like fanfic.
And seeing how poorly planned out this 'fanfic' is, it's not even good fanfic. THEY NEED A BETA!

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

I have to agree that, in a lot of ways, this game definitely seems to smell of bad fanfic.

Now, all we need to make this self-insert fanfic complete is Marth breaking up with Caeda in the most out of character fashion possible and then having her end up dead moments later (Bonus points if she's killed by Marth or the self-insert because Marth wants her dead, but simply dead will do the job) to ensure that no one can argue that she's "in the way." Then have Marth and the self-insert run off into the sunset to live happily ever after. -_-

That was not a suggestion, IS. That's a good way to make me cry.

I'm done being stupid now.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

If he's such a mess, I feel sorry for Caeda. Then again, she's savvy enough to run things on her own. But... sigh.

Do. Not. Like.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Who knows, maybe she helps him get better and heal and come to terms with everything and grieve, etc. etc.

that's what I'm going to think and nothing IS or anyone says will change that. /puts foot down

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

Then again, she's savvy enough to run things on her own.

Unless some conversation that we have yet to hear has done bad things to her character too. I'm afraid to find out now. ;_;

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't worry about that. Everything we've seen so far about Caeda, from her patience with Stalker Melissa to her interaction with the Axe Bros, has been awesome. I had deep concerns about how Marth was being handled even before Elice!gate broke.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Written by a ten year old girl from Smash Brothers fandom who knows nothing about the games she's writing for, because who needs actual canon when you have hawt bishies?

Oh god if they actually did something like that I'd get the first plane out of America to wherever the hell they're located in Japan and smack them with a brick or some inconspicuous, yet blunt object. Or I'd buy a katana there and do an honour killing BECAUSE THAT HAS TO SHAME THEIR ANCESTORS IN SOME WAY.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

*cringes*

This is going to need a big 'fic Band-Aid ™.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Hey, man, you called it. I'm pretty sure you said he was bound to crack.

Unfortunately, this is not a particularly interesting brand of cracked, and doesn't even seem to be in-character for FE11!Marth. Though I can kind of see why the "saving people thing" (as they say in Harry Potter circles) might develop, given that he wasn't able to save his own mother.

We can make some sense out of this one. But damn, I don't like it.