![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mark_asphodel[Information about Nintendo of Japan script courtesy of
amielleon ]On the surface, it seems to be a big break from tradition, what with non-noble Everyman protagonist Ike and a world populated by beast-people and bird-people as well as dragons who aren't quite the same as the "manaketes" of earlier games. Despite these surface changes, FE9 and FE10 aren't as big of a departure as they look; in fact, I'd say that for their return to console gaming IS pretty clearly took a look back at the previous console era and returned to the SNES well for these games. The skills from FE4 and FE5 are back, as is the differentiation between Wind, Thunder, and Fire magic. Many characters are obvious echoes of long-ago beloved predecessors-- the relationship between snarky sniper Shinon and his green-haired apprentice Rolf evokes Archanea's Jeorge and Gordin, while layabout Makalov reincarnates loser-brother Matthis from that saga. The Jugdral character tributes are somewhat more subtle, though Micaiah in particular evokes FE5's Linoan on a couple of levels.
There's a feel of "old canon in a blender" to this despite the new distractions of 3D graphics and… cat people.
Let's get this over with quick: there are no traditional endings in FE9. Yeah, Ike can get A-support special bonus endings with a lot of people, ranging from his faithful den mom Titania to Lucius-with-wings, I mean the feisty heron prince Reyson. But that's about all that's flexible, aside from the changes that occur depending on whether you defeated the Black Knight. Aside from Calil and Largo deciding to "open a shop together" (cough), everyone pretty much goes back to their lives. Ike, unlike Roy, does not marry any of his A-support options. ANY OF THEM.
And let's get this over with, too-- the romantic dialogue between Ike and Elincia was a creation of the NoA adaptation, not present in the original. And that's OK-- things get changed, or better or for worse, in every adaptation. But in terms of evaluating how FE9 flows into FE10, it's worth keeping in mind that the people who created Ike didn't have him being nearly so tender with the princess.
So let's skip over FE9 for a moment and plow on right to FE10, 'cause that's where our endings are actually located. After two games of pick-yer-pairing (FE7 + FE8), FE10's endings are like a trip back in time to the Kaga era: there are, once again, a small number of possible pairings in the cast, and everyone else is left single… happily or otherwise. Few characters have actual multiple-choice options.
So what do we get? Queen Elincia can marry her faithful general Geoffrey, while Geoffrey's sister Lucia can opt into an affair with Count Bastian (Geoffrey, Bastian, and Lucia appear to be this saga's version of the Two Guys and a Girl configuration that's been around since Jeorge, Astram, and Midia in FE1). Wyvern rider Jill can opt in to a marriage with fellow rider Haar. If the wolf queen Nailah survives, heron prince Rafiel will join her in the desert. Heron princess Leanne can marry raven king Naesala and have children with him. Bow knight Astrid can marry the layabout knight Makalov. Calil and Largo are still together, and in true FE style now have an adopted daughter. Mist can marry Boyd; her unpaired ending has her forever unwed. As for our Lords, Micaiah can opt out of marriage to Sothe (another one of these foster-sibling deals), while Ike can be joined in his intercontinental travels by either Soren or Ranulf. That's it. Red cav Kieran doesn't marry Peg Knight Marcia. Gentle healer Laura doesn't marry her buddy Aran. A lot of "traditional" pairings simply don't come about, which made (and still makes) fans unhappy. Yet this is all very much in keeping with the pre-FE7 style of the franchise, not some new and abominable thing.
It also doesn't tell the entire story. Take "alluring rogue" Heather, who has no marriage options, but is explicitly into pretty girls. Yes, she's a gag character and not exactly positive representation for queer characters. Neither was Big Gay Marty. Oh yes… speaking of Marty, Devdan apparently uses female speech in the original script and could be construed as some bizarre homage to Marty. Get your head around THAT one. And then there's Kyza, a cat-dude revealed to be an "okama" in the original script (that roughly equates to "drag queen"). Or how about the innuendo-laced relationship between Lucius-with-wings and Tibarn, king of the hawks? Or Lucia, who seems awfully close to her milk-sister Elincia ("closer even than blood sisters") in spite of the Bastian option.
Yessir, after a relative drought of canon gay in FE8, Tellius appears to be the golden age of gay as far as this franchise goes. Some of the innuendo was NoA's invention (including, IIRC, Micaiah's crack about Ike being the father of Sothe's children). Some of it, like the quirks of Devdan and Kyza, was in the original and NOT included in the NoA adaptation.
And then there's Ike, Our Hero, who doesn't marry the catgirl or the princess or the spunky "Trueblade" or any of the other ladies. Ike, as I said above, as two options-- he can tour the world with Soren, his trusted tactician, or with Ranulf the catboy. That's it. FE9 appeared to be setting him up for a relaaaaationship with Elincia, but all that was an artifact of the NoA translation (the hero never gets with the "Nyna" archetype anyway-- x-ref Marth and Nyna, Roy and Guinevere, Sigurd and Aira).
What does that mean? It means exactly what it looks like it means! Soren and Ranulf are Ike's canon options for life-partner, lover, whatever. And if this is creepy because Soren looks like a child, or Ranulf has cat ears and a tail, well… I agree with you there, man. But it's not creepy that Ike (who seems to be rather spectacularly uninterested in sexual pursuits, even as main characters of Fire Emblem games go) goes off with his choice of two dudes. It's rather more creepy to me that Micaiah hooks up with her "brother," but this is, after all, Fire Emblem we're talking about.
But Micaiah/Sothe isn't really debatable… just as nobody would be questioning the status of the relationship if Ike did go off with, say, a choice of either Mia or Lethe. Which gets back to the double standards I talked about here.
Now, here's one last urban myth about the Tellius games-- Ike may've been in Super Smash Bros and looked cool and stuff, but that doesn't mean they sold well in the home market. In fact, these games bombed. Hard. Arguably harder than any games in the history of the franchise. Maybe it was lack of dating-sim fun, maybe it was the cat people. I sure hope it was the cat people. Anyway… for its next act, Intelligent Systems went back even further, this time to the NES well.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 12:05 am (UTC)Etto, Aira is the "Nyna" archetype? Deirdre fans will looks for you(but again Aira fit the Archetype with like shoe, maybe Aira was a potential bride into the first build of the game, again FE4 was the most dummied out game alongside FE5), but again that is a reality of the franchise.
Yes, Tellius Saga bombed so hard that destroy a lot of Fire Emblem Spirit alongside Intelligent Systems(several designers and writers abandon the team to SPD function, even Yuka Tsujiko reduced his responsibilities with the franchise) and make the franchise in jeopardy, was Tohru Narahiro who manage to convince Iwata to give them a budget for FE1-DS, who manage to break in japan... but not so much in west(thanks to Piracy, specially in Europe), for that, FE3-DS was never planned to localize(Steve Singer comment that, the game would easily be pirate and never would the effort who treehouse have with Skyward Sword in the way, and Europe was pretty busy with Xenoblade & Rainfall games)
And much of new change into the DS remakes can be attributed to IS general manager and founder, Tohru Narahiro , who want to 'reset' the Akaenia continuity as more close as was planned before(with Marth having his vengeful 'personality' and being less player avatar, the 'my unit' as the true player unit and 'commander'/strategist in the vein of Nintendo Wars series and yes, with the Jeigans beings training freaks, mostly because he sucks a PE in the School)
Fire Emblem, you are truly mind-breaking strategy
no subject
Date: 2012-12-14 11:48 pm (UTC)Etto, Aira is the "Nyna" archetype? Deirdre fans will looks for you
Not my idea, really, but Aira gets cited as a "Nyna" (fugitive princess, I guess) when archetype obsessives lay them all out.
for that, FE3-DS was never planned to localize
Unfortunate, that.
with Marth having his vengeful 'personality'
So are you saying this is in the original script? Because I've wondered for years if NoA/NoE invented that side of his personality.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-15 01:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 05:12 am (UTC)I played through PoR firmly convinced that Ike was asexual. Actually, without the Ranulf and Soren endings, I could probably still be somewhat convinced of this.
Random fact of the day.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 11:00 am (UTC)Also sometimes the Ike-is-Ace argument comes across as a way of negating that he goes off with his choice of another dude. Ah, fandom politics.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 05:33 am (UTC)[ミカヤ]
クリミア解放を果たした英雄…… アイク将軍…………▼ (The hero who liberated Crimea... General Ike ........)
I think the excess of dots was probably meant for an eyerolly effect, but father-of-Sothe's-children is a new (and welcome) innovation.
Fwiw, just for completion, there are a couple of NPC marriages, like Meg. Actually, Meg's "missing" ending with Zihark is quite a surprise, considering that her arranged marriage (a continuation of Zihark and Brom's supports from FE9) made up like half her character. (The other half was being Brom's daughter.)
That said, while Reyson owes some things (mentions of sickliness and prettiness) to Lucius, I think he's a very different character at heart. Lucius is placid and kind and preaches forgiveness. Reyson wants to commit genocide in revenge. Also he punches people. In the nose.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 11:08 am (UTC)It's more the lovely blond visuals and the fan reaction thereto. Same deal with this new guy Rivera/Libera, whatever his core differences as a character. Something about it gets under my skin. I think I groaned when Libera was unveiled to the public.
Anyway, on IM you pointed out that many of these endings are difficult to achieve, and I just wanted to note that I'm not taking speed of support-building or ease of hookup into account on any of the games. At least not in these essays...
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 12:38 pm (UTC)I guess there's Natasha, but her hair isn't really long enough, and it's just not the same type.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 03:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 04:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 03:11 pm (UTC)Also, I think the pretty blonde thing may have earlier roots in Elphin, and before him... Perhaps Edain. *shot*
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 03:37 pm (UTC)I mean, really Claude is the father progenitor of these prettyboyz but he looks like shit in FE4 so unless you're looking at the card game you won't remember Claude.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 04:07 pm (UTC)Personally I'm not convinced that's a distinction worth a whole lot. "Pretty long blonde haired men" is pretty narrow as it is.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 04:25 pm (UTC)They're the Aideen line of descent. Lucius and Reyson and Rivera spring from Claude.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 04:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 04:26 pm (UTC)Though Rafiel really doesn't have any of the teeth to his dialogue that Elphin sometimes does. I guess they used that all up on Reyson.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-13 03:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-13 04:32 am (UTC)Not that this is bad! I love them both to death. Just, despite their really similar designs and situations, they're very different in demeanor, IMO.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 11:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 12:44 pm (UTC)At the same time, it does actively force a lot of things to be AU. Mist marries anyone who isn't Boyd? AU - her solo ending says she never marries. Ike/any canon character who isn't Soren or Ranulf post-RD? AU - he's never seen again. What does get cut off is cut off a lot more than most other canons. Like, if I felt like writing a thing where Eliwood and Isadora got married, I could do that without contradicting canon in the least.
Not that contradicting canon is bad, mind you. But in a lot of ways, there's often more concreteness to be contradicted.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 10:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 01:11 pm (UTC)I'm all for ace interpretations, don't get me wrong. And I do personally get a "feel" from Ike like that. But I don't believe his interactions are really that differently written from the typical lord -- and I find it a little odd that no one really posits ace for them. I just don't see there textually being more absence of interest in Ike than for the typical lord, despite that "feel" persisting for reasons I can't really quantify. Maybe it's just that Soren is so unquestionably the Ninian to his Eliwood, and the whole age thing just. . . still squicks me out. So headcanoning Ike as ace means I don't have to think that he's boning a guy who apparently looks enough like a kid to get the same response at times as freaking Rolf. (Doesn't skeeve me out like the idea of Hector and Florina, though.)
But anyway. Tellius' endings were definitely a big WTF to me after 6-8, and at first it really bugged me that, say, Mist/Rolf was explicitly not a thing. Ditto for Titania/Rhys; I thought that was going somewhere! But the more I think about it, the more I like it. Especially in comparison to what we've gotten in FE13, where basically every person of the opposite sex a character supports with is a potential mate and everybody can meet their ~soulmate~ in war or whatever. That just does not gel for me at all. I much prefer having just a few relationships put at the forefront and woven in. Even the ones I don't like; Boyd and Mist have at least one scene that really made them work for me.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 03:43 pm (UTC)You know, the topic of interpreting characters as ace comes up often enough that I wonder if one of us ought to write meta about it? It's such a different (and fascinating) lens that it probably merits exploration. I don't think I'm the person to do that, though, since I'm pairing-crazy and all (especially in this fandom).
As for the FE13 approach, I can comfortably say that Nintendo lifted that from other JRPG developers (e.g. Idea Factory), who, in turn, most likely got inspired to do it that way originally because of games like FE4 and Phantasy Star III. *chuckles* The serpent eating its own tail, so to speak.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 04:23 pm (UTC)Take a guy like Hannibal. Maybe he never felt a sexual impulse in his life, but the script just says he was too busy being a general to get married and leaves it at that. There's just nothing to go on. Same for Cain. Same for Jagen. And
Dyute. Maybe she's ace because she's happily single? I
don't think that necessarily follows.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 04:39 pm (UTC)And it sucks, because it really is an idea I find pretty interesting! I'd just like to see it explored outside pet-issue stuff. It frequently feels like the line between interesting-character-thought and outright projecting is too shaky.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 05:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 11:16 pm (UTC)Yeah. And, you know what, there's a GOOD argument to be made for someone like Hannibal-- never marries, CAN'T get married in a game where almost everyone can, adopts a little boy in a manner that we are supposed to find good and pure and heartwarming. And yeah, he's old, "ugly" and obscure... but so's Dadga and there's one-half our FE5 bara couple.
Besides that, FE does seem to have a weird "no sex" thread running through it-- witness all the married couples or unmarried lovers who help orphans rather than breeding their own kidlets. There's plausible arguments to be made... but the Ike argument isn't something I'm buying, especially not when it comes couched in the form of personal testimony with a side order of contempt for "shippers," you know?
And in most cases we just have no information one way or another and therefore no idea what the intent was.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 04:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 05:31 pm (UTC)You are correct about this being a faulty mindset. ... But it's a bit hard to think around it or out of it, I'm finding. That may just be because it's sort of my way of seeing the universe. (It's certainly my way of doing 'fic.) Conversely, it may also be the source of my ace fascination, since, to me, it's a bit like looking at the Moon through a telescope. It's so far out there, from where I'm standing, that I can only speculate about it from what little I am able to see.
I don't think I'm ready to consider "aromantic" yet. My brain's still processing asexuality.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 05:42 pm (UTC)So I have trouble really dealing with the issue, myself. I don't want to project my own mindset on characters I like or identify with, because I think that stunts interesting exploration. Especially with characters where it's probably an integral thing! I mean, I don't think Louise and Pent had their kids purely out of marital duty and spend all their time holding hands and talking about philosophy, if you know what I mean.
And as you said, so much of the ace stuff is this. . . angry, holier-than-thou, "I'm so above sex unlike those plebes" like what you see on tumblr. And I hate that. It's near impossible to discuss, for me, without worrying about all that.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 10:36 pm (UTC)This is exactly how I am too. I can get behind it in theory and all but I have no idea what an accurate representation would look like (probably why I'm so blind to character chemistry as well). So I usually just end up sidestepping that bit of narrative and placing the focus elsewhere. Idk, maybe it's dishonest, but I figure it's at least more honest than trying to portray something I can't claim to understand.
Anyway, regarding "proving" a character's asexuality: last I checked most people weren't on board with the idea of "proving" a character's sexuality, period. I guess I'm not sure how this would be much different, unless it has to do with statistics and the likelihood of actually being asexual and whatnot? But again, that depends on how relevant you consider psychological realism to be in this context. Personally I wouldn't consider it a huge leap to say a character with no sexually-construed dialogue is ace... I mean, most (reasonable) people wouldn't cry "circumstantial evidence" for a compelling argument that Character X is gay, right? In the end it's character interpretation, and I think we're all okay with that as long as it's not, you know... crazy.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 10:50 pm (UTC)This particular meta series is mostly concerned with canon-as-given and creator intent, though. With most FE characters we have no earthly idea what their bent is, especially in the early games. None whatsoever. There's no info, so the player is free to believe whatever they want. We can posit that Cain is into Marth, into Catria, or simply asexual and into training!!!, but the key thing here is that the game gives us nothing and we know nothing of what they were intended to represent. Whereas Kyza, it's pretty obvious what he was intended to be in the original script!
[Hannibal's a pretty good candidate though, especially given that he can't marry in a game where almost everyone can. But I don't see anyone taking him up as a pet cause because he's obscure, old, and not very sexy.]
With Ike, the game gives us two life-partners for him that both happen to be male. Based on this fact, the idea that Ike is "really" asexual and that exploring his (homo)sexuality is "ace erasure" seems to me to be at best off-base and at worst homophobic.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 11:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 11:26 pm (UTC)This all makes sense for headcanon and fic. Absolutely. I don't dig the kiddyfiddling part of the relationship either.
Ditto for Titania/Rhys; I thought that was going somewhere!
I felt genuinely put out by this at first, but after looking over Titania's "archetype" in greater scope, I get the sense a romance wasn't ever in the cards for Titania (and Rhys is just lucky if he makes it to thirty). So I'm at peace with it now. He teaches school and she visits graves once a year and presumably thinks wistfully of Greil. Yep.
That just does not gel for me at all.
Word.
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 11:38 pm (UTC)I think this is where I was getting confused. We're not claiming that Ike doesn't like guys generally, but this is too far-fetched of a claim to apply to the game script itself, do I have that right?
no subject
Date: 2012-12-12 11:46 pm (UTC)We're saying,"Ike/Soren makes us uncomfortable because of pedo vibes so we are personally more comfortable thinking of Ike as asexual and not a de facto kiddyfiddler. However, we acknowledge that Ike, in canon, is presented pretty much the same as other Lords except that his designated partners are male and if we're calling Marth and Eliwood het 'cause they marry women and have kids then yeah, Ike's into guys."
no subject
Date: 2012-12-14 05:42 am (UTC)And I have quite a few thoughts here, so try to stick with me. I’m running on a severe lack of sleep, but a lot of the gay is, of course, of personal interest to me, and the sheer amount of ‘hints’ in the game is almost staggering. (This is ignoring general subtext ala Rhys/Ulki ect entirely, and going for the more obvious examples)
Ike is the most prominent (and obvious) example. I don’t necessarily agree with the train of thought going on in other comments that he seems asexual. One notable thing is that characters like Eliwood, Hector, Ephraim ect have romantic options (with women) via supports that show off their romantic side, while Ike…does not. Now this could be one for the “asexual” camp, but I take note that if Soren was a female, then people would read into their support very heavily ala Eliwood/Ninian ect. There are females who show interest in him in FE9 -- Elincia, through NoA’s doing or not, has a pretty obvious crush on Ike that he does not seem to reciprocate, and Lethe seems to be pretty into him during their supports while he is…also not. Also, the shopkeep Aimee wants to have his IkeBabies, but he runs from her in one of the few shows of abject terror he has in the series. But his many many gayisms with Soren, not to mention the paired ending with him or Ranulf (or both, if my headcanon is to be anything to go by!) leave a lot of room for…questions… about his exact sexuality. Not to mention that Not Being Romantic does not automatically equate to Asexual.
While some of the representation of the homosexual themes may not always be the most flattering, I don’t think any of it is (in the English version, at least) was particularly offensive (well…except those damn Tiger Laguz running gag gay dudes. They are terrible.) Even in the English version, Heather comes off as very obviously lesbian, but I think she steers clear of the one dimensional gag character that some accuse her of being. While she is privy to a few funny cutscenes, she is one of the only new characters (non primary, like Micaiah or Pelleas) who 1.) Appears in more than two scenes (If I recall correctly, Heather gets about three or four, and interacts with a pretty wide range of characters…Nephenee, Ilyana, Lucia, Elincia…) and 2.) Has some sort of backstory (the sick mother) going on for her in game.
But anyway, that was a tangent. Notably, Heather’s really heavy handed flirting is not treated with any disdain. Lucia kind of ignores it, while Nephenee is embarrassed by it, and Ilyana takes advantage of it to feed the massive all consumer of worlds that is her stomach. Most tellingly, is even though Elincia seems a bit…surprised…by the encounter, she doesn’t denounce Heather in any particular way, which- along side the aforementioned pairings you talked about that are on the same gender spectrum- makes me think that maybe Gay does not necessarily equal Bad in Tellius as a whole.
And, IMO, the Ike/Soren age thing doesn’t really bug me that much. I mean, I’m pretty sure I remember it being insinuated that Soren is older than Ike, and the appearance thing is kinda meh, whatever. I don’t think Ike particularly cares what a person looks like, and I think it’s worth noting at Ike/Ranulf is the only Beorc/Laguz pairing that gets an ending—which is kind of interesting in itself. (Though both Ike and Ranulf are the type to stick it to the rules, so…)
no subject
Date: 2012-12-14 11:45 pm (UTC)It's worth noting Marth also has a ton of ladies after him and doesn't go for any of them but Caeda. So not being into everything falling over you doesn't mean you can't be into someone in this series.
well…except those damn Tiger Laguz running gag gay dudes. They are terrible.
ROFL.
makes me think that maybe Gay does not necessarily equal Bad in Tellius as a whole.
I get that feeling too.
And, IMO, the Ike/Soren age thing doesn’t really bug me that much. I mean, I’m pretty sure I remember it being insinuated that Soren is older than Ike
Micaiah is most definitely older than Sothe and there's a LOT about their dynamic that makes me uncomfortable, too. So it's not just Soren.
Though both Ike and Ranulf are the type to stick it to the rules, so…
They also can't make little Brandeds together.