Rulership: Grading Gen2
Oct. 30th, 2012 05:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mark_asphodelI've been batting this around for a while and after this exchange with shimizu_hitomi I decided to post it.
FE4 gives you a dizzying array of potential heirs to things-- not just the handful of people allowed to keep a degree of power in Marth's Archanea, or the tiny pool of potential rulers in Magvel. So, while a lot of us have already weighed the strengths and weaknesses of Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector, or of Ephraim, Innes, and Joshua, here's my take on how the Seisen no Keifu gang might fare post-war... or in a hypothetical "Gen 3" scenario.
In FE4, girls can only inherit in the following circumstances:
1) Their brothers and any senior relatives die.
2) The brother, the default heir to the mother's possession, inherits something additional through their father and takes that instead (relevant to Tinny and Patty).
But just about anything CAN be inherited by a female under those circumstances, except (I think) the duchy of Chalphy and Grandbell itself.
You can do two or maybe three different pairing combinations in which every territory in Jugdral passes to someone in Celice Army, but I'm only taking into account "predestined" pairings here. We're not going to consider Scathach as a potential king of Silesia or worry about how Azel!Nanna would deal with Velthomer in the event of Delmud's untimely demise. I'm also mostly taking predestined pairings for the girls into account.
shimizu_hitomi I decided to post it. FE4 gives you a dizzying array of potential heirs to things-- not just the handful of people allowed to keep a degree of power in Marth's Archanea, or the tiny pool of potential rulers in Magvel. So, while a lot of us have already weighed the strengths and weaknesses of Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector, or of Ephraim, Innes, and Joshua, here's my take on how the Seisen no Keifu gang might fare post-war... or in a hypothetical "Gen 3" scenario.
In FE4, girls can only inherit in the following circumstances:
1) Their brothers and any senior relatives die.
2) The brother, the default heir to the mother's possession, inherits something additional through their father and takes that instead (relevant to Tinny and Patty).
But just about anything CAN be inherited by a female under those circumstances, except (I think) the duchy of Chalphy and Grandbell itself.
You can do two or maybe three different pairing combinations in which every territory in Jugdral passes to someone in Celice Army, but I'm only taking into account "predestined" pairings here. We're not going to consider Scathach as a potential king of Silesia or worry about how Azel!Nanna would deal with Velthomer in the event of Delmud's untimely demise. I'm also mostly taking predestined pairings for the girls into account.
Celice-- I'm not saying I'm really confident about his abilities to rule an empire devastated by depopulation, dark magic, and overall maltreatment, but in FE terms, you can do worse. He's not eager to rule but he accepts it, he's not exactly experienced but he's willing to learn, and he's not stupid or reckless. Unfortunate that Levin won't stick around to guide him, but Celice will do OK. I expect the future holds some nasty surprises for him, though.
Aless-- Angry dude raised as a mercenary whose loyalties turn on a dime, shipped off to a place he hasn't been since the age of four with the intent of being its unifying king after nearly two decades of brutal occupation. What could possibly go wrong? Well, he's not the man Eltoshan was, but IMO once he's "seen the light" we're supposed to think Aless the Black Knight will do fine. And I'm actually willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, for reasons outlined in the next entry.
Leaf-- FE4!Leaf wants to be a ruler more than any of the other second-gen kids-- exponentially more; he's aaaaall about ruling New Thracia once he gets his hands on it. That kind of ambition is sometimes a symptom of bad things to come, as FE does like its reluctant rulers. FE4!Leaf seems to mature a bit during Second Gen, getting his initial recklessness under control in a taste of the "sadder but wiser" Leaf we get over the course of FE5. On paper, Leaf appears to be the best set-up of the Second Gen kiddies, prepared for rulership and with experienced people like Hannibal able to help with the whole unification thing. That said, in between his vengeful and reckless side, his evident inferiority complex, and his equally evident ambition, something seems a little troubling about the Leaf we get in FE4. I suspect that, if any of the Second Gen kiddies were to go to the dark side in the originally planned Gen3 plotline, Leaf would've been It.
Lester-- Aideen's boy has no real stand-out qualities. If he inherited Verdane, Velthomer, or Edda (or Jungby, in the event of family tragedy) all those countries might be in better hands, but they could certainly be in worse hands. Lester and Patty ruling Verdane together would be... interesting, to say the least.
Delmud-- The even-keeled beta male of the Nodion clan sets off fewer alarm bells than Cousin Aless, that's for sure. I suspect he's a massive help to Aless in getting Agustria under control, and might be a better and more stable (if less glamorous) ruler than Aless. But overall I expect he'll be fine in either role.
Scathach-- Another beta male. Scrabbles might work as a ruler for Dozel, but overall I think he'd be better off supporting his cousin Shanan's rule in Isaac. I assume all the Tirnanogue boys had some degree of "proper" education compared with the likes of Aless and Faval; Scrabbles seems a little more fit for high society than the rough-spoken urchin that Shanan was in Gen 1. Just a little.
Shanan-- Speaking of Shanan, he seems well set up as a ruler by the time we see him in Gen 2. He knows his people and is respected by them, he's had years to grow into the role, and once the pesky Grandbellians and their allies are off his turf, I think he'll be able to take over easily.
Oifaye-- I'm pretty sure he can handle governing Chalphy. This is one inheritance that looks to be a seamless fit to a character's abilities and ambition.
Johan/Johalva-- I realize they step down, but I can't see how they'd be any worse for Dozel than random Lex!son. :/
Arthur-- Oooh. Hardscrabble Silesian upbringing + desire to purge the earth of his maternal relatives + desire to get back to his beautiful homeland of Silesia. And he gets sent to Freege by default if he doesn't inherit Velthomer, Dozel, or Edda, with Silesia only coming in as a remote possibility. This is exactly what I mean when I say that a territory can have a worse fate than Lester inflicted upon them. Frankly, Arthur looks to be another good candidate to "turn" on Celice in the end.
Sety-- Actually raised as a prince, in his homeland, with strong values instilled by his mother blah blah Holsety! I see no reason for concern here. None. Silesia is in good hands, as I think Sety's already learned the limits of do-gooderism in the course of the war.
Faval-- Oh, yes. The street kid working as a hired killer for Blume, transformed into the new Duke of Jungby unless an even greater hassle awaits him as the new ruler of Verdane. Again, this is what I mean by "could be worse than Lester." Faval lacks a grasp of basic etiquette and I don't know what all his education consisted of. I'm not entirely sure he can read. Wherever he lands, it's sure gonna be fun.
Corple-- Poor kid really ought to stay in Thracia, but if he does end up in Edda (or Silesia), I'm sure he'll strive to do his very best. An earnest, moral, selfless kid who might be a good fit indeed for Edda, which seems to be one of the least corrupt regions in Grandbell. Freege would likely eat him alive.
Julia-- Non-issue. She hangs around Barhara supporting Celice. Interpret as you please.
Lana-- C'mon, unless there's a clean sweep of the Jungby bloodline, she ends up as somebody's wife. Probably Celice's wife. I see no reason to object to her as an empress, queen, or duchess consort.
Lakche-- Isaac better hope she doesn't inherit, is all I can say. Impulsive and poorly-controlled. I think marriage to Celice might bring out the best in her, for whatever that's worth.
Nanna-- Now here's a nice asset to a would-be ruler. Steely, classy, and (based on her lover conversation to Celice) arguably the most devout of the Gen 2 girls. Great marriage pick for Leaf, Aless, or Celice, and not a bad option for Agustria if her brother and cousin get whacked.
Fee-- She's a gutsy girl, someone who actively signed up for Celice's crusade based on the values that Fury instilled in her. If something happened to Sety I'm sure she'd try every bit as hard as Fury and Rahna did to keep Silesia together. Would also make a fine duchess for Chalphy or for whatever Arthur inherits, and as queen consort for Levin!Arthur, Silesia couldn't do better.
Tinny-- Huh. Well, she'll inherit Freege unless you go the non-predestined route and pair Tiltyu with a nobody. As she was raised in the context of a noble family, Tinny actually gets court life and has a clear sense of noblesse oblige. So, even though she's moe and squishy and turns to mush over her dear brother, IMO Tinny looks to be a better ruler than Arthur. Excellent marriage pick for Leaf and a decent one for Sety.
Leen-- I have nothing positive to say about her abilities to rule anything in the event her brother dies, so let's just assume she raises morale at Aless's court.
Patty-- As excited as she is to find out she's a noble lady, I suspect both Patty and whatever court she lands in are in for a rough ride. And if she has a falling out with Lester or Shanan, she's gonna make off with the silver. And possibly anything else not nailed down.
Altenna-- Ook. She comes off great in her dialogue with Corple, but everywhere else, Altenna seems emotionally fragile and in over her head as a princess and as a military commander. And remember, she inherits all of Thracia if Leaf dies. Without her real brother OR her foster brother around, I don't have high hopes for Altenna's rule. Remember how the whole Minerva thing went down in Macedon? Yeah. Maybe she should've had the option to marry Corple; they're good for one another.
Hannibal&Finn-- Govern Thracia on behalf of Celice if Leaf and Altenna both kick it. Given Hannibal's ending dialogue doesn't change in any event, I suspect he'll carry on in a professional manner and maybe find a way to get Arion back in the picture. As for Finn, having him rule a sorta-unified Thracia with both Cuan's kids dead is as neat a depiction of living hell as I've seen in these games. Also, he's a beta male to make Delmud and Scrabbles look like alpha dog pack leaders. Doesn't sound promising to me.
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Date: 2012-10-31 02:24 am (UTC)Leaf: "Yes."
Aless: "Me, too."
All Three: "Trololo lolo lololo — !"
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Date: 2012-11-01 02:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-11-01 02:58 am (UTC)Depends on the territory, IMO. It's not so much court life as outright politics vs lone wolf behavior.
My feelings on it come from a couple of different places-- FE2 and the way "peasant prince" Alm is handled, FE3 and its depiction of how hard it actually is to "reboot" a nation with entrenched interests, and FE5 wherein we see that, whatever's going on at the top, a kingdom is still filled with lower-level nobles and functionaries and the people who make the day-to-day business of a nation work. I'm sure Palmark and Felipe weren't the only honest people in Grandbell. Whoever inherits, say, Freege will have to contend with purging the corrupt elements, cultivating the less corrupt ones, and deciding what elements he or she can actually compromise with. If Arthur goes in there and takes an attitude of "You're all horrible people and I want to go home," that won't get him very far, whereas Tinny (from working behind her uncle's back, as the villagers claim) has actually already been dealing with that sort of crap.
Now, maybe in Verdane all it'll take is a display of force and cunning to get things under control, but maybe not.
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Date: 2012-11-29 01:15 am (UTC)Some of these things fit in pretty well with the canon a friend and I were developing for a projected 3rd hack, especially the Faval is an uncultured/uneducated hick idea since in our world Jungby and Issac were BFFs with Queen Patty married to King Shanan and the fact that in game Grandbell seems to regard Issac as backwater barbarians. For even more fun we decided to go with Julia/Scathatch (I think it was for the skill growth?) and their kids were surly little bastards who flaunted the fact that they were of Issacian descent in everyone's faces.
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Date: 2012-11-29 04:56 am (UTC)so the idea of Leaf gradually becoming the despot they all fought to overthrow is pretty compelling.
Oh, cool. Glad to know I'm not on Mars about the concept.
First you execute a traitorous noble, soon you're taking care of those pesky independence people (Conote anyone?) and then you find yourself killing anyone to keep Dad's dream kingdom together.
Yes. That's basically it to a T (especially the part re: Conote, right on).
and their kids were surly little bastards who flaunted the fact that they were of Issacian descent in everyone's faces.
That sounds hilarious. Tell me more!
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Date: 2012-11-29 08:10 am (UTC)While creating the story, we decided to essentially make all of the kids little hellions and go from there: Warning long
Main Character was the Princess Classed third child of Altenna and Arion: They had a girl first who inherited the Dain blood and then had a son for Noba, but he just so happened to come with an unplanned and "extra" (since no Holy Blood) little sister twin. She's the outcast in more ways then that as she's a decidedly bookish for the militaristic Thracia and viewed as kinda "weird" with her silly ideas for increasing Thracia's agricultural output with crazy ideas such as "floating islands" in land and terraced mountain slopes (whoho Ancient South Americas!) She's actually quite terrified of wyverns due to her elder sister's trying to take a bite from her. Upper Thracia wants the Noba-son to join the Lance Ritter of and recreate the glory of Cuan's day, but he's too busy terrorizing the skies. At the beginning of the game she and her cousin (Leaf/Nanna's daughter) end up being shipped over to Chalphy for a bit as it was discovered they were behind a series of incredibly scathing political cartoons/short writings making fun of various nobles and traditions
In Grandbell we have Julia and Scathatch's kids. In my mind while Aira had kids with Lex some political shuffling ends up with him and Julia kinda going between the two countries of Issac and Grandbell, with Johan in control of Dozel. Narga!son ends up kinda despising the entire Barhara court and starts to strongly identify with his Issacian heritage. In my mind his portrait include an "Issacian" (why couldn't have more distinct fashion?) headband noticeably covering up his Narga blood mark. He can and will try running away from court on a regular basis
Celice and Lana's kids include an older daughter and a son. Their daughter takes after Aideen in the "looks everyone wants to band" department but is loved as a sort of modern day war goddess figure of sorts, since she inherits the Major Baldo blood. She's also been the recipient of many marriage offers since before puberty and is kinda jaded on the entire idea of marriage and kids in general. She will often use her charisma to spontaneously round up some knights and go off on a month long bandit scouting "party" along with some of the other kiddies. Their son (only kid with Narga blood*) was crippled early during a sort of assassination attempt and has since joined the priesthood and is trying his best to not have anything to do with the throne.
*For Holy Blood Inheritance we decided someone could get three parts at most, with major counting as two since it gives twice the growth bonuses
In Agustria, I created a backstory were Nodion got Major Hezul when a long time ago some Bastard!Knight who didn't know married a minor female noble. the only reason they weren't killed was because it was becoming increasingly apparent that some cheating or shenanigans had gone on in the main royal family, causing them to "lose" their blood. The knight was one of those extremely loyal types so the king wanting to keep control of the Mistoltin had them swear an oath to stay eternally loyal to the royal family and to never seek the throne themselves. Aless has been facing some legitimacy claims from this long ago oath and northern Agustria is still a pretty damn chaotic place that is being fought over. His first child with Leen is an incredibly militaristic/strict "combat medic" troubadour, who is quite willing to use force and death to avenge slights against her family. Daddy's little iron tyrant as it were. Part of it is due to the incredibly turbulent setting she was raised in, but also because in this story Leen's kinda shat upon by the opposition for her "sketchy" background as a dancer (whoho slut shaming!) so their kid is kinda sensitive.
There's other stuff, but it's not quite coming to me now. I remember our main problem was "gee what villains are we gonna use?" and "why aren;t the parents just marching forth and killing everything?" I think we tried solving that via a) Verdane is a shithole with malcontents everywhere b) MORE LOPTO CULTISTS (there was also something about them kidnapping Holy Blooded kiddies and trying to Dierdre brainwash them, except only Manfloy knew how to do that properly) c) REBELLIONS EVERYWHERE and d) Rulers are busy ruling and idk taking care of the drought?
Discord among countries, especially Leaf, gives an amazing antagonist and I just thought up of a scenario where his daughter just breaks down in the middle of Lenster's court yelling at him tearflly over what he's been doing, Leaf having to throw drag her away and have her thrown into a dungeon (so far gone he has to save face) and a rescue chain that involves Finn and her brother standing against the rest of the kiddies who want to rescue the daughter.
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Date: 2012-12-03 12:58 am (UTC)Re: terracing in Thracia-- maybe I'm crazy but I thought there was some reference to that at the end of FE5? Anyway, it's the sensible thing to do.
I also liked the way you had Celice and Lana's kids figured. Sounds very promising.
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Date: 2014-05-29 05:03 am (UTC)Despite Lex being a great stat/skills father, I really like the idea of the Jo brother having to rule and live with all the decisions he's made. Seems more significant with possibility for self-reflection than Lex's kid would go through.
That drabble you wrote for my prompt on tumblr really got me thinking about Larcei/Seliph, and how significant it'd be with the Isaac plotthread in mind. That and it's a nice way to open up Lana's/Shanan's/Jo bro's Lover options up since Seliph and Larcei are taken off the table.
I definitely like Altenna best with Corple/Sharlow. Other canon(?) options (Aerone, Fin) come with some weird emotional/relational baggage. It's super weird when you consider hoe FE4 tried to push Altenna/Areone as canon, then FE5 gives him a betrothed before he plain vanishes. ...what does that accomplish???
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Date: 2014-05-31 12:40 am (UTC)Yah, me too. That's one reason I've gotten fond of Jamke/Aira. If Holyn and Lex are otherwise engaged it's still a workable pairing on multiple levels.
Seems more significant with possibility for self-reflection than Lex's kid would go through.
Agreed.
It's super weird when you consider hoe FE4 tried to push Altenna/Areone as canon, then FE5 gives him a betrothed before he plain vanishes. ...what does that accomplish???
Seems to have made some shippers mad! And it really is weird. So, the FE4 beta supposedly had Alty and Arion as auto-lovers. Clearly they backed off on that. But we know from the video of deleted scenes on niconico that Altena has home-castle dialogue for a potential lover, and also allegedly some of her in-game conversations result in love-point boosts that go nowhere (presumably because the points don't accumulate to any level). So she might have been marriageable but then it got disabled, and then come FE5 we have Arion's fiancee running around.
I have gone from liking Altena/Arion a lot to mostly being weirded out by it, and FE5 is part of it. Not that Finn/Altena is any better but the weirdness there is at least something I can get my head around. Corple/Altena has no downside 'cause he's gonna grow up... eventually.
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Date: 2014-06-30 06:00 am (UTC)I really have to try this couple in game some time! And write some fic with that as an element somewhere, cause I find the politics and implications fascinating. Although, only downside to Larcei being Verdane's princess is she can't get her kickass end dialogue with V's heir- I swear it pretty darn cool, I mean she's defensive and over-agressive as usual, but her arguing that she'll go with him to help fight is very fitting for her character. Gosh I wonder if I can find the translation for that, with that one English translated FE4 end-generator gone.
Yeah, the whole lusting-for-adopted-sibling thing I never could get behind. Just like how Sothe being in a adoptive position hit my "nope" button when the Micaiah starts trying to get shmoopy with this kid she's raised. Finn/Altenna has a lot of complicated feelings behind it (since she kinda remembers him, and one could argue she looks like a female Cuan) but I could definitely see the marrying to produce heirs if nothing else. Corple/Altenna promises only good things! ...and is now another reason why it's hard for me to set Corple up with a non-Thracia inheritance. He's definitely the best marriage prospect for understanding how Altenna sees herself as the princess of dragon-riding Thracia.
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Date: 2014-07-02 12:58 am (UTC)I did have a link to the English subsection of AceNoctali's page but lost it when I upgraded my computer. Maybe it's buried on his French site somewhere...
"Just like how Sothe being in a adoptive position hit my "nope" button when the Micaiah starts trying to get shmoopy with this kid she's raised."
Yeah, with Sothe/Micaiah you have the maternal aspect as well as the sororal one, which really puts it into the Bad Zone IMO.
"Finn/Altenna has a lot of complicated feelings behind it (since she kinda remembers him, and one could argue she looks like a female Cuan) but I could definitely see the marrying to produce heirs if nothing else."
Complicated is right. I mean, I guilty-pleasure ship it but it's pretty jacked-up and I don't have the same good feelings about it that I do for Oifaye/Fee. I mean, *if* he had a thing for Fury then marrying Fee is a little sketch and *maybe* Fee is working through some daddy issues but overall I feel that's a really positive pairing, whereas Finn/Altenna just feels more off... in SPITE of their big scene having more apparently romantic content with Finn's tears and Altenna going all "daisukideshita". There are support chains leading to marriage in FE with less "romantic" content that that, but it STILL feels off and of course it can't lead to marriage in-game. Odd stuff...