On Reclassing
Oct. 22nd, 2012 09:34 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mark_asphodelWent out of town this weekend. It was great. Back to reality tomorrow. Damn.
Anyway, when FE11 introduced reclassing as a gameplay element, a lot of the fanbase went apeshit and not in a positive way. Reclass was spoken of as some kind of abomination; I think the cherry on the lunacy sundae was the person who claimed it was actually unjust to the characters to take, say, the elderly priest Wrys and make a swordfighter out of him.
Well, two games later and reclass is entrenched enough that the FE13 supports actually make accommodations for the possibility that characters are no longer in their starting class by the time a conversation is unlocked. I also don't hear people screaming about it ruining the characters... though I do think that there is a valid point to the idea that reclassing dilutes a character's identity. I can make Swordmistress!Elice and Priest!Cain, but that's not... well, canon. It makes no sense in terms of canon. However, IMO the "everyone makes with everyone" pairings for FE13 dilute character identity, too-- the same as in FE4.
Which is what this is really about.
If we got a full-scale FE4 remake, some form of reclass would be helpful in fixing the game's lack of balance.
A) Reclassing to get around inherent flaws in character classes. Altenna has a holy weapon the player can't make great use of because she has two weaknesses-- she's a flying unit weak to projectiles, and her RES is awful even after Corple gives her a boost in that department. (Arion at least has Nihil and would be arrow-immune if you could actually recruit his obstinate ass.) This makes her a liability on the field, particularly in the final chapter with its swarms of bowmen and magic-users. If Altenna had some limited reclass options that still made use of her lance rank-- say, Pegasus Knight, Social Knight, Lance Knight, and Armor Knight-- she could compensate for at least one of these key flaws.
B) Reclassing to fix holy weapon inheritance with @#$%ing predestined pairings. The key example here being Claude!Arthur-- why the hell does the script endorse this when Arthur can't use the Valkyrie staff? Reclass that boy to a Sage on promotion and at least he can make use of the stupid thing, or at least as much use as Holsety!Corple can get out of his holy weapon.
C) Reclassing to fix predestined pairings in general. Fury's other "canon" (LOL) pairings are with Arden and Noish. Apparently this doesn't wreck Sety, but it's not like Sageman can ever make use of physical strength. A reclass to Mage Knight or something else with a dual magical/physical component closes that loophole. And then you've got stupid Lester and his inability to use Azel's tomes, Dew's swords, Claude's staves, OR Finn's lances. Why bother with six "endorsed" pairings for Aideen when only two of them do anything for Lester? Why does Briggid have two predestined romances with bow users when Faval gets bows from her and Patty can't use Midir's or Jamka's weaponry under any circumstances?
Alternatively: re-do the entire pairing system, but that's another discussion.
D) Reclass to fix the inheritance black hole. Say you make a Lex!Skibbles and a Finn!Delmud in this hypothetical remake, but this time they actually get inherited weapons instead of having everything from their male parental unit mysteriously go missing. Then you reclass Skibbles to a footbound axe user and reclass Del to Social Knight (gotta make use of that A-rank in swords, yes yes) and you're in business. The boys aren't radically different from their original form-- you're not making them into a priest and a mage-- but they make far more efficient use of the resources at hand. And I'd bet money that Lex!Skibbles would be better at chopping than Johan/Johalva.
I don't really want to see a free-for-all reclass in this hypothetical remake, especially as some characters have the classes they do for obvious plot reasons-- frex, prince/princess probably ought to stay exclusive to Leaf & Lachesis, though maybe some other characters could have a Master Knight option on promotion (Arthur would again be a good candidate-- then he could use Lex's axes or Claude's staves). But there are just so many issues with this game that a judicious bit of flexibility would go a long way toward fixing.
Also, go Giants! Have I received my ideal World Series matchup yet?
Anyway, when FE11 introduced reclassing as a gameplay element, a lot of the fanbase went apeshit and not in a positive way. Reclass was spoken of as some kind of abomination; I think the cherry on the lunacy sundae was the person who claimed it was actually unjust to the characters to take, say, the elderly priest Wrys and make a swordfighter out of him.
Well, two games later and reclass is entrenched enough that the FE13 supports actually make accommodations for the possibility that characters are no longer in their starting class by the time a conversation is unlocked. I also don't hear people screaming about it ruining the characters... though I do think that there is a valid point to the idea that reclassing dilutes a character's identity. I can make Swordmistress!Elice and Priest!Cain, but that's not... well, canon. It makes no sense in terms of canon. However, IMO the "everyone makes with everyone" pairings for FE13 dilute character identity, too-- the same as in FE4.
Which is what this is really about.
If we got a full-scale FE4 remake, some form of reclass would be helpful in fixing the game's lack of balance.
A) Reclassing to get around inherent flaws in character classes. Altenna has a holy weapon the player can't make great use of because she has two weaknesses-- she's a flying unit weak to projectiles, and her RES is awful even after Corple gives her a boost in that department. (Arion at least has Nihil and would be arrow-immune if you could actually recruit his obstinate ass.) This makes her a liability on the field, particularly in the final chapter with its swarms of bowmen and magic-users. If Altenna had some limited reclass options that still made use of her lance rank-- say, Pegasus Knight, Social Knight, Lance Knight, and Armor Knight-- she could compensate for at least one of these key flaws.
B) Reclassing to fix holy weapon inheritance with @#$%ing predestined pairings. The key example here being Claude!Arthur-- why the hell does the script endorse this when Arthur can't use the Valkyrie staff? Reclass that boy to a Sage on promotion and at least he can make use of the stupid thing, or at least as much use as Holsety!Corple can get out of his holy weapon.
C) Reclassing to fix predestined pairings in general. Fury's other "canon" (LOL) pairings are with Arden and Noish. Apparently this doesn't wreck Sety, but it's not like Sageman can ever make use of physical strength. A reclass to Mage Knight or something else with a dual magical/physical component closes that loophole. And then you've got stupid Lester and his inability to use Azel's tomes, Dew's swords, Claude's staves, OR Finn's lances. Why bother with six "endorsed" pairings for Aideen when only two of them do anything for Lester? Why does Briggid have two predestined romances with bow users when Faval gets bows from her and Patty can't use Midir's or Jamka's weaponry under any circumstances?
D) Reclass to fix the inheritance black hole. Say you make a Lex!Skibbles and a Finn!Delmud in this hypothetical remake, but this time they actually get inherited weapons instead of having everything from their male parental unit mysteriously go missing. Then you reclass Skibbles to a footbound axe user and reclass Del to Social Knight (gotta make use of that A-rank in swords, yes yes) and you're in business. The boys aren't radically different from their original form-- you're not making them into a priest and a mage-- but they make far more efficient use of the resources at hand. And I'd bet money that Lex!Skibbles would be better at chopping than Johan/Johalva.
I don't really want to see a free-for-all reclass in this hypothetical remake, especially as some characters have the classes they do for obvious plot reasons-- frex, prince/princess probably ought to stay exclusive to Leaf & Lachesis, though maybe some other characters could have a Master Knight option on promotion (Arthur would again be a good candidate-- then he could use Lex's axes or Claude's staves). But there are just so many issues with this game that a judicious bit of flexibility would go a long way toward fixing.
Also, go Giants! Have I received my ideal World Series matchup yet?
no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 12:25 pm (UTC)Anyway, the whole lining up weapon with pairing thing always struck me as really troublesome. Having sets of classes that are similar to each other that someone could change to makes sense. Better than the non-intuitive system 11 has, and way better than the really stupid gender-specific crap 13 has going on.
I wonder why no one ever complains about the trainee system in FE8 fudging character identity. How the hell does shaman!Ewan line up as Saleh's student, unless there's something Saleh isn't mentioning? How is pirate!Ross following his father's footsteps? Etc. But that might just be that people tend to be too busy complaining about the Not FE7 part, still, to think about the characters :B
no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 08:09 pm (UTC)How is pirate!Ross following his father's footsteps?
I think FE8 actually lampshades this in Ross's support with Gerik, about how the former always wanted to go on a sea voyage or whatnot. My memory's vague, but I do recall thinking that was a neat touch.
You've got me on shaman!Ewan, though, at least within canon boundaries. You could exploit the "Control Enemy Units" cheat and use the Stone monster item to give Sage Saleh the Dark proficiency so he goes around casting Fluxes and justify it that way, but AFAIK the game designers didn't intend for you to do that, so...
Or you could write it off as Ewan's mischievous streak getting the better of him and delving into Dark magic away from his teacher's eyes, though you'd have to wonder why there isn't any plot repercussion in that case. Maybe dark magic isn't frowned upon in Magvel like it is in other FE worlds -- which would kinda make sense, what with the highly respected (pre-plot) nation of Grado and all its dark mages. So when Saleh finds out, he just sort of shrugs it off.
But I don't know what to tell you about the Summoners.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 08:39 pm (UTC)Nope, dark magic is regarded, even in Grado, as blasphemy - Magvel's attitude is far more leery than Elibe's. Even the only definite protagonist practitioner doesn't ever try to excuse it; he actually seems to dread the stuff. And it's explicitly sourced from the Demon King, so shaman!Ewan is crossing a whole lot of lines, there. It's an idea I've always thought was really interesting, but that the game just kind of shrugs about. (True of much of FE8, aha.)
no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 09:10 pm (UTC)Then again, it's sounding like this stuff came out in supports, and I haven't read Knoll's in forever. I ought to take another look.
ETA: If even Grado calls it blasphemy, it makes you wonder about the numerous generiShamans you fight on their side in-game. Maybe they only came about once the plot kicked off? That's a curiosity in itself.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 09:44 pm (UTC)Check out his Natasha support. She's a Grado native and patriot and Knoll's line of research is abhorrent to her.
no subject
Date: 2012-11-04 08:54 am (UTC)According to hacked data, Dara has the stats of a druid. o_o She also has a dark affinity - the only other ally characters with dark affinities are Knoll and Rennac.
...which all makes the whole "dark magic is bad" thing even weirder (and makes the idea of sketchy dark magic Saleh even more intriguing, at least to me!).
no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 09:45 pm (UTC)Given Saleh's past apparently includes murder/manslaughter, there may well be something he's not mentioning!
But that might just be that people tend to be too busy complaining about the Not FE7 part, still, to think about the characters :B
This. Sadly.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-24 12:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 06:49 pm (UTC)What do you think should be done with the substitute characters in a system like this?
no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-23 07:48 pm (UTC)Gameplay And Storyline Segregation. FE11's script doesn't care about the changes you make; canon will go on as canon always has, regardless of the player's actions. Character identity is a nonissue because no plot adjustments are made.
Sure, justifying the changes - especially the bizarre ones - would be challenging in a storyline sense, but since only the player would care about that in this case, it's the domain of headcanon and not base canon.
However, IMO the "everyone makes with everyone" pairings for FE13 dilute character identity, too-- the same as in FE4.
I'm really not inclined to argue with this one, because I'm basically in agreement. Who makes kids with who is a much more character-relevant decision than who's wielding an axe instead of a sword (or staff, or bow, or tome).
As someone else here once said, the "anyone can marry anyone" system just doesn't lend itself to coherent results. There are many factors up for change when you switch out Mate A for Mate B, and covering them all realistically within the confines of a fixed and finite game program just...isn't realistic, itself. "One-size-fits-all" for the script becomes a necessity, and it does compromise things, because that's less data and focus the game can spend on developing those aspects of that character.
IMO, what all this ultimately does is move aspects of character identity out of canon definition and into the realm of player interpretation. Since my principle pleasure in playing any game is the possiblity of exploration in my fiction, I personally have no problem with this, but I can understand that others mightn't like it so much.
I don't really want to see a free-for-all reclass in this hypothetical remake, especially as some characters have the classes they do for obvious plot reasons-- frex, prince/princess probably ought to stay exclusive to Leaf & Lachesis.
Even in FE13, there are class trees and plot-exclusive classes - the only true free-for-alls are MU and their spawn. On that note, the concept of allowing descendant characters access to both their parents' trees is one I approve of so far, and I wouldn't mind seeing something similar for new!FE4.
though maybe some other characters could have a Master Knight option on promotion (Arthur would again be a good candidate-- then he could use Lex's axes or Claude's staves).
I'm thinking the FE13 approach: a special item, perhaps as paid DLC, that grants a given character access to the Master Knight class. (It could make Johan and the subbies worth your time!)
Maybe the whole one-use-per-game-file thing Awakening already has going on with certain items? That way you don't have an entire field of MKs, but you can make one out of whoever you wanted for whatever cracktacular reason. (MK!Patty or Linda? Sold.)
But there are just so many issues with this game that a judicious bit of flexibility would go a long way toward fixing.
Indeed. I'm wondering if they wouldn't simply throw an FE13 at it and call it a day.
(Obviously adjustments would still need to be made, unless they don't care about Griffon Knights in Jugdral.)That brings me to another question, actually. What would you want done about Skills, especially the all-important Pursuit?
no subject
Date: 2012-10-24 02:08 am (UTC)That's true for FE11, but seems to have shifted somewhat for FE13.
I personally have no problem with this, but I can understand that others mightn't like it so much.
I don't like it when the interpretations become nonsensical or frustrating. I mean, a certain amount of frustration fuels speculation and 'ficcing, but hitting the wall of incoherence is not especially fun.
I'm thinking the FE13 approach: a special item, perhaps as paid DLC, that grants a given character access to the Master Knight class. (It could make Johan and the subbies worth your time!)
Ah! That could work.
What would you want done about Skills, especially the all-important Pursuit?
Oook. That is a tough one. Pursuit is so important to gameplay and so horribly implemented that I've really no idea how to fix it.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-24 05:15 am (UTC)I actually haven't read all that many of FE13's translated supports, so I'm afraid I can't really say much about how it's handled in that game, but your mention of it does make me quite curious.
The one Support I remember reading that did reference character class was Soiree's with her daughter, and I think that one actually emphasized the latter's starting role. IIRC, Soiree wanted Degel to be a horseback knight like herself, but by Support A admitted that the latter just wasn't suited for it and worked best as an Armorknight after all.
(Of course, it's been a while, so I might have that totally wrong.)
I don't like it when the interpretations become nonsensical or frustrating. I mean, a certain amount of frustration fuels speculation and 'ficcing, but hitting the wall of incoherence is not especially fun.
I can definitely understand that. It brings to mind one of your earlier entries -- a more recent one, too, wherein you mentioned wondering if the best approach to FE4 wasn't just to sort of skim canon and write what felt good to you. When the canon gets too complicated for my tiny brain (and that's a genuine self-jab: I really do tend to be easily confused), I tend to just shrug my shoulders and resolve to go with whatever headcanon works.
Admittedly, making said headcanon work without upending too much of the original universe's caveats can...potentially be a pain. I've only just started poking around the possiblity of a serious attempt at FE4 ficcing with alternative pairings, and I'm already seeing some headscratchers.
(It's a different canon, and possibly not even relevant to the subject, but this also reminds me of the Megaman X series and how much of a snarl their collective storyline got to be. When/if the day comes that I finally write for that universe, I fully plan to take the "cafeteria canon" approach and just include what I want, and throw out the rest --even making shit up outright if I need to. Who knows, my own FE4 world[s] may end up requiring this as well.)
Oook. That is a tough one. Pursuit is so important to gameplay and so horribly implemented that I've really no idea how to fix it.
It's my understanding that FE4 alone has the Pursuit gimmick; in absolutely every other game, pretty much everyone has the double-attack benefit with the right SPD. If they went with more traditional sensibilities for a remake, all the urgency and strategy to choosing your pairs would go out the window. It brings Awakening to mind -- who shacks with who doesn't seem especially important in that game. Sure, some matches grant specific advantages (such as certain class trees and exclusive skills), but unlike FE4, no union produces definitely bad results. I actually seem to remember Serenesforest lauding this as one of the system's strengths.
And I think it also brings up what I said before, about allowing players to pick their poison at the start of a new save. "So hey, before we begin -- y'want old school or new school for your gameplay chassis? We recommend the former for those who want classic FE4, and the latter for those who want something more like other FEs."
Don't know how practical it'd be to actually implement that, but it sounds ideal.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-24 11:48 am (UTC)Don't know how practical it'd be to actually implement that, but it sounds ideal.
Not FE, but FFIV uses a similar system in the PSP remake. All the bugs are ironed out, but you can select between the re-done OST or the old one, and set the battle to be at the same speed the SNES tended to go or at a more "modern" pace. So things like that can be done-- the question is really whether, in this far-fetched scenario, they would be.
FE11 wasn't really engineered to fit a lot of "new" FE tendencies,but it was hardly an exact remake, either. So it's hard to say!
no subject
Date: 2012-10-24 05:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-25 03:08 am (UTC)Oh, you're correct. I was thinking of one of Brady's supports wherein he mentions that he "started off" as a priest, implying that he could well be something else by that point in time.
I've only just started poking around the possiblity of a serious attempt at FE4 ficcing with alternative pairings, and I'm already seeing some headscratchers.
Oh, I'd like to see that.
It's my understanding that FE4 alone has the Pursuit gimmick; in absolutely every other game, pretty much everyone has the double-attack benefit with the right SPD.
Yes. It didn't even come back for FE5.
but unlike FE4, no union produces definitely bad results. I actually seem to remember Serenesforest lauding this as one of the system's strengths.
OTOH, if I recall the FE13 kiddies all come in at Level 10 and all supplement instead of replacing your Gen 1 cast, so they don't matter nearly as much. I believe I've also heard the Fe13 kiddies aren't as stellar as Celice, Aless, Levin!Sety and good Lakches, either.