Reconciling Seisen and Thracia
Feb. 12th, 2012 11:42 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mark_asphodelAnd I thought Archanea had continuity problems.
So, I want to write something about, say, Nanna. Which I do. Like, say, Nanna's relationship with her mother Lachesis. Well, we hit a couple of walls pretty quick. When we compare the FE4 script, the FE5 script, the Illustrated Works timeline, and the various designers' notes, things get muddy.
1) Where was Nanna born?
Seisen answer: Chapter seven claims Nanna was born shortly before Lachesis fled to Lenster. Sounds like she was born in Isaac, where all the little 'uns were hiding. Maybe.
Thracia answer: IIRC, it's not stated, but the implication is Lenster.
Supplemental answer: Designers' notes and the "Lenster's Fall" story make it clear she was born in Lenster, shortly before the castle fell.
Ilustrated Works timeline agrees.
2) So were she and Delmud ever together as children?
Seisen answer: Implied yes, per their conversation in Chapter 7.
Thracia answer: No, and Delmud didn't even know about her until Levin told him.
Supplemental answers: No.
3) And when did Lachesis disappear?
Seisen says Nanna was three, which means Nanna likely has no memory of her mother.
Thracia indicates that Lachesis was present a much longer time span-- she disappeared when the "family" was hiding in Tahra, about six years before the game events. Nanna and Leaf would both know and remember her well.
Designers' notes say Nanna was eight when Lachesis disappeared.
Illustrated Works timeline says Lachesis left Nanna somewhere in between 769-771. Nanna would be no older than ten.
4) And how does Nanna feel about this?
Seisen Nanna is still pretty conflicted about it. She seems to have hoped that Lachesis was with Delmud in Isaac the entire time ("If you're my brother, then where is [mother] now?"). And her conversation with Finn ("If you loved her so much, how could you have let her go all by herself") implies that the entire topic is a major no-no in that household.
Thracia Nanna resolves things upon meeting Delmud. She says she was angry at him before, but after meeting him, she understands her mother's decision.
5) So what happened to Lachesis anyway?
Seisen: Lost in the desert, apparently. The kids are Not Happy when they puzzle this out.
Thracia: Alive somewhere per Levin, and Delmud knows this when he and Nanna meet. She is possibly turned to stone. Leaf swears to go looking for her so he can get Lache's blessing to marry Nanna, and it's implied that Finn goes looking for her after the war, with unknown results.
Designers' notes say she was in a prison camp at Silvail with a bunch of kids and Delmud eventually finds her.
6) And who's Nanna's father, anyway?
Seisen answer: Anyone you shack Lachesis up with. Could be Dew if you prefer that option.
Thracia answer: IIRC, everything stated in the script points to Finn, but he could've simply adopted her, and if holy blood doesn't come into things Thracia makes it pretty clear that adopted family is family and no "yes, but." Mareeta is Evayle's daughter, end of argument. That Finn acknowledges Nanna as his daughter does not actually imply a biological relationship. Indirect game-mechanic evidence for this-- he has his trademark super-lance all through Thracia, which he does not have in Seisen Gen 2 if you pair him with anyone.
"Lenster's Fall" answer: Sure as hell isn't Finn, and the story was written by a member of the Thracia staff.
Kaga's comments: Implied Beowulf; Lache was pregnant already when she went to Lenster.
Illustrated Works timeline is not helpful and just says "Lachesis came to Lenster in '61 and gave birth to Nanna in the following year." So, was she preggers or not when she showed up?
7) So who's Delmud's father?
Seisen answer: Whatever dude you paired Lachesis with.
Thracia answer: Implied Beowulf. He can use the Beo Sword.
Designers' notes/Kaga's comment: Beowulf.
8) OK. If canon is slanted toward Beowulf, what does the Beo/Lachesis conversation in Seisen have to say about all that?
The infamous Chapter Five talk:
L: Beowulf...
B: Lachesis, if anything were to happen to me, I want you to go to Lenster. Finn is there with Cuan's children. Give him a hand, okay?
L: How could you say that? When we go, we'll go together!
B: Lachesis, I've got a confession to make.
L: Hm?
B: I've known your true feelings all along.
L: What...!
B: Take good care of yourself. It was mighty nice while it lasted.
L: Wait! Beowulf!
[I really fail to see how this makes Beowulf into an irredeemable dick.]
Lache's Chapter Five conversation with Noish also has Noish telling her to go to Lenster, but the conversation mostly revolves around her nephew Aless (and we'll get to that in a second). But the Beowulf conversation can be interpreted the following ways:
1) Beowulf is making false accusations about Lachesis. She admits to nothing, after all.
2) Beowulf just knows Lachesis isn't into him. Nothing specific implied there.
3) He's talking about the whole Eltoshan thing. Rather important episode in Lache's character arc, after all.
4) The direct request to go play house with Finn, coupled with the "true feelings" comment, indicates that Finn and Lachesis were either screwing around or that at the very least Lachesis was thinking about it.
So, why did Lachesis go to Lenster?
Seisen answer (Beowulf): Went to go play house with Finn, per the conversation above.
Seisen answer (Noish): Looking for Aless, or something...
Seisen answer, Chapter Eight: Nanna believes that Lachesis was looking for her nephew Aless, and the trail took her to Lenster. Nanna's been carrying around a letter from Lachesis to Aless the entire time.
(Of course, if you pair Lachesis and Finn to start with, it's obvious why she goes to Lenster. But, again, the preponderance of canon evidence points to Beowulf as her lover/husband before hell really breaks loose.)
Kaga's comments: She went to Lenster to protect Aless, got the cold shoulder from Mrs. Eltoshan, and went to seek Finn out thereafter.
The "preponderance of evidence" allows one to piece together a pretty involved story, but it requires outright ignoring things in one game script or the other. Either Nanna was born before the Bahara disaster (761) or she wasn't. Lachesis either left when Nanna was a toddler or when she was a child of 8-10. On balance, I'd say the Thracia version of events is more detailed and compelling one, but is Thracia canon even, well, canon? I mean, Leaf's rebellion failed per FE4.
So, is it "wrong" to go with "Seisen canon" (pair up Lachesis with whoever the hell you want) in "Thracia 'fic"? Um... maybe? It kind of feels wrong. I mean, if I wanted to cut through all the BS and just pair Finn/Lachesis from the get-go, there's a lot to ignore. The Beo sword. Delmud's clear resemblance to Beowulf. The fact that Finn and Delmud never have one single conversation together in either of the games. I realize some fans (not to mention the Oosawa manga) just want to cut Beowulf out of the hot Lachesis action entirely, but it seems like Kaga's own headcanon had Beo there.
'Sides, I kinda like Beowulf. Here you have this rugged older dude who's been around (he's got that other son who pops up in Thracia, after all), and he scores this pretty little princess as his bride. She's probably a "fun" partner. And she's not into him, but he's more or less OK with it until things get real sticky and then he tells her to scram and to get on with her life. What's bad about that, exactly?
It's not like things were all happy-lovey with Finn, either, given that he and Lachesis had a never-resolved disagreement over the "find Delmud" thing. Lachesis went out alone over Finn's objections, and years later he refuses to talk about it with their(?) daughter and Selphina's reading him the riot act over it ("Why did you leave Lady Lachesis? You knew how sad she was!"). Note the sentence construction there. In Selphina's world, Lachesis didn't say good-bye and set out merrily across the desert. Finn left her. And presumably took the kids. Not sure how that works, given Finn stayed put in Tahra until Imperial troops showed up, so maybe the translation's jacked up there. But at the very least, I'm thinking there's a bit of a double standard here where Beowulf is concerned. He's "old and ugly" (whatever) so he's a bad guy and Finn is teh pretteh so he gets a pass on whatever the hell it was that he doesn't want to discuss circa 776.
So, I want to write something about, say, Nanna. Which I do. Like, say, Nanna's relationship with her mother Lachesis. Well, we hit a couple of walls pretty quick. When we compare the FE4 script, the FE5 script, the Illustrated Works timeline, and the various designers' notes, things get muddy.
1) Where was Nanna born?
Seisen answer: Chapter seven claims Nanna was born shortly before Lachesis fled to Lenster. Sounds like she was born in Isaac, where all the little 'uns were hiding. Maybe.
Thracia answer: IIRC, it's not stated, but the implication is Lenster.
Supplemental answer: Designers' notes and the "Lenster's Fall" story make it clear she was born in Lenster, shortly before the castle fell.
Ilustrated Works timeline agrees.
2) So were she and Delmud ever together as children?
Seisen answer: Implied yes, per their conversation in Chapter 7.
Thracia answer: No, and Delmud didn't even know about her until Levin told him.
Supplemental answers: No.
3) And when did Lachesis disappear?
Seisen says Nanna was three, which means Nanna likely has no memory of her mother.
Thracia indicates that Lachesis was present a much longer time span-- she disappeared when the "family" was hiding in Tahra, about six years before the game events. Nanna and Leaf would both know and remember her well.
Designers' notes say Nanna was eight when Lachesis disappeared.
Illustrated Works timeline says Lachesis left Nanna somewhere in between 769-771. Nanna would be no older than ten.
4) And how does Nanna feel about this?
Seisen Nanna is still pretty conflicted about it. She seems to have hoped that Lachesis was with Delmud in Isaac the entire time ("If you're my brother, then where is [mother] now?"). And her conversation with Finn ("If you loved her so much, how could you have let her go all by herself") implies that the entire topic is a major no-no in that household.
Thracia Nanna resolves things upon meeting Delmud. She says she was angry at him before, but after meeting him, she understands her mother's decision.
5) So what happened to Lachesis anyway?
Seisen: Lost in the desert, apparently. The kids are Not Happy when they puzzle this out.
Thracia: Alive somewhere per Levin, and Delmud knows this when he and Nanna meet. She is possibly turned to stone. Leaf swears to go looking for her so he can get Lache's blessing to marry Nanna, and it's implied that Finn goes looking for her after the war, with unknown results.
Designers' notes say she was in a prison camp at Silvail with a bunch of kids and Delmud eventually finds her.
6) And who's Nanna's father, anyway?
Seisen answer: Anyone you shack Lachesis up with. Could be Dew if you prefer that option.
Thracia answer: IIRC, everything stated in the script points to Finn, but he could've simply adopted her, and if holy blood doesn't come into things Thracia makes it pretty clear that adopted family is family and no "yes, but." Mareeta is Evayle's daughter, end of argument. That Finn acknowledges Nanna as his daughter does not actually imply a biological relationship. Indirect game-mechanic evidence for this-- he has his trademark super-lance all through Thracia, which he does not have in Seisen Gen 2 if you pair him with anyone.
"Lenster's Fall" answer: Sure as hell isn't Finn, and the story was written by a member of the Thracia staff.
Kaga's comments: Implied Beowulf; Lache was pregnant already when she went to Lenster.
Illustrated Works timeline is not helpful and just says "Lachesis came to Lenster in '61 and gave birth to Nanna in the following year." So, was she preggers or not when she showed up?
7) So who's Delmud's father?
Seisen answer: Whatever dude you paired Lachesis with.
Thracia answer: Implied Beowulf. He can use the Beo Sword.
Designers' notes/Kaga's comment: Beowulf.
8) OK. If canon is slanted toward Beowulf, what does the Beo/Lachesis conversation in Seisen have to say about all that?
The infamous Chapter Five talk:
L: Beowulf...
B: Lachesis, if anything were to happen to me, I want you to go to Lenster. Finn is there with Cuan's children. Give him a hand, okay?
L: How could you say that? When we go, we'll go together!
B: Lachesis, I've got a confession to make.
L: Hm?
B: I've known your true feelings all along.
L: What...!
B: Take good care of yourself. It was mighty nice while it lasted.
L: Wait! Beowulf!
[I really fail to see how this makes Beowulf into an irredeemable dick.]
Lache's Chapter Five conversation with Noish also has Noish telling her to go to Lenster, but the conversation mostly revolves around her nephew Aless (and we'll get to that in a second). But the Beowulf conversation can be interpreted the following ways:
1) Beowulf is making false accusations about Lachesis. She admits to nothing, after all.
2) Beowulf just knows Lachesis isn't into him. Nothing specific implied there.
3) He's talking about the whole Eltoshan thing. Rather important episode in Lache's character arc, after all.
4) The direct request to go play house with Finn, coupled with the "true feelings" comment, indicates that Finn and Lachesis were either screwing around or that at the very least Lachesis was thinking about it.
So, why did Lachesis go to Lenster?
Seisen answer (Beowulf): Went to go play house with Finn, per the conversation above.
Seisen answer (Noish): Looking for Aless, or something...
Seisen answer, Chapter Eight: Nanna believes that Lachesis was looking for her nephew Aless, and the trail took her to Lenster. Nanna's been carrying around a letter from Lachesis to Aless the entire time.
(Of course, if you pair Lachesis and Finn to start with, it's obvious why she goes to Lenster. But, again, the preponderance of canon evidence points to Beowulf as her lover/husband before hell really breaks loose.)
Kaga's comments: She went to Lenster to protect Aless, got the cold shoulder from Mrs. Eltoshan, and went to seek Finn out thereafter.
The "preponderance of evidence" allows one to piece together a pretty involved story, but it requires outright ignoring things in one game script or the other. Either Nanna was born before the Bahara disaster (761) or she wasn't. Lachesis either left when Nanna was a toddler or when she was a child of 8-10. On balance, I'd say the Thracia version of events is more detailed and compelling one, but is Thracia canon even, well, canon? I mean, Leaf's rebellion failed per FE4.
So, is it "wrong" to go with "Seisen canon" (pair up Lachesis with whoever the hell you want) in "Thracia 'fic"? Um... maybe? It kind of feels wrong. I mean, if I wanted to cut through all the BS and just pair Finn/Lachesis from the get-go, there's a lot to ignore. The Beo sword. Delmud's clear resemblance to Beowulf. The fact that Finn and Delmud never have one single conversation together in either of the games. I realize some fans (not to mention the Oosawa manga) just want to cut Beowulf out of the hot Lachesis action entirely, but it seems like Kaga's own headcanon had Beo there.
'Sides, I kinda like Beowulf. Here you have this rugged older dude who's been around (he's got that other son who pops up in Thracia, after all), and he scores this pretty little princess as his bride. She's probably a "fun" partner. And she's not into him, but he's more or less OK with it until things get real sticky and then he tells her to scram and to get on with her life. What's bad about that, exactly?
It's not like things were all happy-lovey with Finn, either, given that he and Lachesis had a never-resolved disagreement over the "find Delmud" thing. Lachesis went out alone over Finn's objections, and years later he refuses to talk about it with their(?) daughter and Selphina's reading him the riot act over it ("Why did you leave Lady Lachesis? You knew how sad she was!"). Note the sentence construction there. In Selphina's world, Lachesis didn't say good-bye and set out merrily across the desert. Finn left her. And presumably took the kids. Not sure how that works, given Finn stayed put in Tahra until Imperial troops showed up, so maybe the translation's jacked up there. But at the very least, I'm thinking there's a bit of a double standard here where Beowulf is concerned. He's "old and ugly" (whatever) so he's a bad guy and Finn is teh pretteh so he gets a pass on whatever the hell it was that he doesn't want to discuss circa 776.
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Date: 2012-02-13 05:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-02-13 05:25 am (UTC)