Meta Month, Day 20: High Stakes, Low Stakes

[mark_asphodel]

This is an extension of something I said over at amielleon's place.

War.  The battle between overwhelming Evil and whatever Good is still left on the planet. The Fate of the World (TM) in the hands of a chosen few.

Pretty high-stakes stuff, right?  Perfect for an Epic Story-- a novelization, even.  Well, maybe.

Low-stakes and mid-stakes stories are a good and lovely thing, and shouldn't be neglected, but let's just set those aside for tonight.  Let's focus on ways that a high-stakes tale of Jugdral or Elibe or Tellius can just... not work.  If high-stakes drama isn't your thing, then this probably doesn't apply to you.

1) The audience knows what's going to happen.

Actually, knowing the plot twists shouldn't "spoil" anything-- you know sitting down to a performance of Romeo and Juliet that they're not riding off into the Italian sunset, right?  The Ancient Greeks knew that Antigone's uncle Creon wasn't going to admit that she was right and then let her marry his son.  So, theoretically, a treatment of the first-gen Jugdral characters should be enhanced by the knowledge that most of them will come to a horrible end.  That in itself is not the problem.

2) Things are overmatched in favor of the Good Guys.  The 'fic reads like the equivalent of Easy Mode.

The enemies are surrounded, Team Blue has the entire army intact and all their legendary weapons and everybody's Level 20/20 and shows it.  If they're that awesome, why did this war take so bloody long in the first place?

3) The Bad Guys are too stupid/careless to win.

Fortunately, we don't see much of this in Fire Emblem, but in many media properties, it's a problem with canon.

4) The Good Guys are too stupid/careless to win, yet do anyway.

Arguably a problem with Fire Emblem canon in some cases.  Also a problem in fanfiction, often when an inexperienced writer has allegedly intelligent characters making truly ludicrous mistakes ("Don't worry, Lyn-- it's OK to be hit by a blunt axe!")

5) The writer tilts the playing field in a more subtle way than given above.

Huge problem, IMO.  One of the biggest problems facing alleged war stories in FE fandom is the refusal of writers to let any character who doesn't die in the plot to well, die. Come on, guys.  If there's no actual threat to your army because the tactician is so damn brilliant that everyone sails through unscathed, then what's actually at stake here?  If Eliwood and his friends can't lose, because the writer won't let them lose, then something's fundamentally wrong with the conception of that writer's war epic, IMO.  Seriously, read The Red Badge of Courage or All Quiet on the Western Front or even Catch-22 and imagine yourself a version wherein only the bad guys die and the good guys all have a pithy little quote-party at the end before they all shack up together.     

[Aside-- I think Franz gets killed a lot in FE8 fiction because he's exactly the type of character who does get offed in professional war stories.  It feels appropriate.]

6) Refusal to deviate from canon.

YMMV.  Some writers won't let anyone die because their conception of canon doesn't allow for it.  Some consider various game routes to be irreconcilable.  Some consider(ed) the Gaiden chapters in FE11 to be non-canon because of the conditions that had to be met to obtain them.  Like #1, this is not a problem by itself.

And sometimes all these combine to turn what is allegedly a high-stakes drama into a low-stakes comedy, and by "comedy" I mean a broken situation put right, not a laugh fest.  The prime example of this would be the many, many versions of Lyn's Tale floating around.

Lyn's Tale looks good, on the surface, for a full-scale dramatic treatment.  It has a small band of characters, a tight plot, and even a remarkably sympathetic guy on the wrong side in General Eagler.  But there's a real problem in trying to weave a great dramatic epic of wartime realism out of FE7's tutorial.  There is nothing at stake.  Quite literally nothing.  Canon dictates that the worst that could happen is that someone goes home with an owwie and the Tactician's rating isn't so great.  Everybody comes back for the second act.  And, given the vast number of Lyn's Tale stories out there, at this point the readership is quite familiar with that fact.  Unless the author is willing to dispense with #6, points #1, #5, and arguably #2 come together for something that might look on the surface like an "epic," but actually is no such thing. It's a sweet little comedy of camaraderie and coming-of-age pretending to be a war story, so "edgy" Tacticians and such end up ringing horribly, horribly false... and, personally, I just don't feel like reading any more of these any time soon.  To a certain extent, all fanfiction is about making the reader salivate on cue like a trained dog, and when it comes to Lyn's Tale, at this point my mouth is dry and my tail ain't wagging.  It's not that it's overdone, not exactly-- it's that the overdone-ness, and the done-wrongness, have reduced the potential impact of a canon-compliant "serious" retelling to nothing.  The writing and the characterization might be A++, but it's in the service of something that (again IMO) is a fundamentally dubious exercise.  If you're going to be SRS BZNS about Lyn's Tale, at least change something up-- make it not be a comedy.  Up the stakes.  

Or relax and let the Tactician just be some random kid in a cloak and let Sain tell his jokes.

Some interesting Lyn's Tale AUs are here and here.  One is rated M and the other T, both for good reason.

Comments

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I thought SoloWing's novelization of Lyn's Tale was pretty good, too. (YMMV, his tact was a Stu, but at least it was still an enjoyable enough read, unlike a lot of others.)

Anyway, this post is awesome and you should feel awesome. Now I never have to touch this topic again, hurrah! :D

The idea of a novelization (and writing one) is pretty novel (lawl), but it's:

1. Not as easy as it sounds
2. It's fucking difficult

Wait, those are the same thing. No, but seriously. After attempting three or four times (and luckily never posting any failed attempt haha), I've gotta say that it's just one of those things you have to have skill to do.

You've got to:

-Make it interesting enough so that your readers don't wander off to New Novelization #2047 before you've posted Chapter Three, so you're
-Deviating from canon at least somewhat, if only in small ways (tactician actually CAN fight a little, actually the tactician fails at life, oh hey ACTUALLY WIL IS AN ASSASSIN shut up I like my idea still), which can
-Really irritate your audience if you do it wrong. So while you're deviating from canon you're also
-trying not to copy game script too much, but
-also trying to spice up the dialogue and/or paraphrase and/or whatever. And while you're at it
-You've gotta make the villains real enough that they don't feel like cardboard cutouts, but that's really hard because the game only really tells you they're evil
-While you're doing that you're also trying to write about scenes that don't happen in the game but have to fit within the game at the point you're writing about, so no matter how much you ship A/B their conversations have to remain as they would be at point X in the canon.
-Oh and yeah, while you're at it you've gotta write battle scenes that feel real enough but at the same time fit well enough within canon that you won't lose your entire audience.

(BTW, I once had an idea that if General Wallace died against Lundgren (and yes I am aware this lolbreakscanon, not caring) then nobody would get to take on Lyn's revenge for her, and so she would eventually have to do it herself and holy shiiiiiit that needs written someday. /shelves idea again)

So my issue was all of the above, and also foreshadowing for WAY WAY WAY in the future (because I fucking LOVE foreshadowing), aaaaand doing other things: like keeping characters in character and keeping them that way throughout the entire story. I mean, it's not hard for some people I guess, but it is for me, because I get too many ideas, and y'know, I can't incorporate them ALL. i.e., you make Lyn illiterate you can't go back on that later.

You're also probably dealing with flashbacks and/or the pasts of characters whose pasts WE DON'T EVEN FUCKING HAVE A CLUE ABOUT, and this includes Lyn, since she's a focal point character. I mean, ffs, what WAS her life like before everyone died oh-so tragically? We don't. Know. AT ALL.

And then there's a tactician in there being an OC, on top of OCs you eventually have to utilize anyway (including other knights, castle staff, handmaidens/handmaids, servants, random villagers, et cetera).

So yeah. It's fucking hard to write a novelization. (What? no, not bitter at all, why do you ask)

So in short I agree completely with this post. It takes a LOT to make your story interesting. I mean, a lot. AU deviations are fun, but an actual novelization needs to really have something to it (especially if it's just Lyn's Tale, but also if it extends further) that makes the reader want to keep reading-- for a lot of reasons: for romance, or for the introduction of their favorite character, or to see if X, Y, and/or Z are going to make it back from the brink of death, or to see how you might change things enough to make them interesting and fresh without totally deviating from the canon and/or tossing tons of canon shit away.

I should also note that it's not okay to make the characters OOC for the sake of deviating. -_- But that's preaching to the choir. However, people like to do it. Not always on purpose, but sometimes people do it and they don't give a damn that they did. Sadly, this isn't referring to just Enilas.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Is SoloWing's the one that never got finished?

Now I never have to touch this topic again, hurrah!

Heheh. Thanks.

I've gotta say that it's just one of those things you have to have skill to do.

Not just skill-- some of the writers I've seen tackling it are skilled. But I think it's a also matter of vision, and of being able to reconcile that vision with that the canon actually is without inducing massive cognitive dissonance in the reader. As you said-- if you make certain choices at the outset of a novelization, you're stuck.

Deviating from canon at least somewhat, if only in small ways

I maintain that NO TACTICIAN would be the most refreshing deviance of all.

I should also note that it's not okay to make the characters OOC for the sake of deviating

That, too.

I do think that FE11 adaptation by Scuttlest offers a very interesting glimpse at how to pull off a SRS BZNS, "cast of dozens," rotating POV novelization. There are some quibbles I have with specific things he's done (we don't see eye to eye on Norne) but I really appreciate the way he fleshes things out "behind the scenes," and I find it worth reading for that alone. Also, I do like his Catria, even though I suppose I will not get what I'd like to see out of his Catria, which is having her in bed with Marth. Ah, well.

Also, though-- he's broken new ground. Nobody in English-speaking fandom has done an FE11 work quite like that before. There's at least one other completed novelization, but it's a MyUnit fiesta. And my Norne story deliberately side-steps large chunks of the war to concentrate on the lead character (Norne). He's got the field to himself, and has pretty well defined it at present.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

SoloWing's only finished Lyn's Tale.

I've actually been thinking more about the tactician (or lack thereof) and I think it would be possible to pull it off. Just because the tactician is there doesn't mean he or she actually attributed to Lyn's win (and to assume by default that no tactician = dead Lyn before Kent and Sain get there is kind of pathetic, for what kind of STRATEGY is involved in defeating only a couple of enemies?). And for all the silly ideas involving the tactician and everyone still winning? I mean, on one hand, I wanted to have the tactician to have a perfect, idk, foil for other characters. But when I settled on:

no tactician vs. a tactician who was actually a non-skilled kid trying to tag along/be protected/whatever

Then I started to think, oh hey, maybe they're both equally plausible. Lyn might not have left Sacae without the tactician on her own, but Kent and Sain were headed there anyway.

On Account of Rain (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2416469/1/On_Account_of_Rain) continues to be a great 'fic (haven't read it in forever, but I remember thinking it likely enough). Now it's not quite the same thing as tactician-less but at least it's something different. xD

But yeah, lately I've decided it wouldn't be too hard to pull off a tacticianless story. You just have to really resolve yourself to filling in gaps and writing as if he was never around to begin with.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

SoloWing's only finished Lyn's Tale.

Is that the one with the Tactician as some super-awesome wyvern rider? The writing was pretty good, but I just wasn't into the atmosphere. I think that's a really apt example of the kind of problem I was talking about re: tone.

I wanted to have the tactician to have a perfect, idk, foil for other characters

I think the problem with that is, to be a foil to everyone, you essentially need no personality. It's one thing to have Hector as a foil to Eliwood, or Oswin as a foil to Hector. Their traits do play off one another. But to be a foil to multiple characters, you run the risk of coming up with something like MyUnit (who apparently is a foil to all 77 characters in the game!)... which isn't very compelling.

Now it's not quite the same thing as tactician-less but at least it's something different.

Ooh. That was really quite good. Thanks for the rec.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

The tactician had a baby wyvern named Romeo, but I don't think he was a wyvern rider or anything. He was a shaman (or dabbled in dark magic).

Well, I meant to be a foil to certain characters, i.e., characters who have similar personalities. (Not "all the characters", but I get what you mean.)

And actually, it works better to not have to make up a whole nother person-- but it'd be cool to have Mark roll into the story, just in a different way-- preferably one that doesn't involve him joining the group.

Glad you liked the rec. It's still pretty good after all these years, which I find delightful. :P not many stories I can say that about.

[bkamiro.livejournal.com]

I think the fic you're thinking of is Voltaire's "Debt of Honor" fic. He isn't a "super-awesome" wyvern rider but he is technically a wyvern knight from Bern (and a noble and martial artist). The writing is decent but his tactician has pretty quickly become a Gary Stu, particularly in the later chapters.

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

But yeah, lately I've decided it wouldn't be too hard to pull off a tacticianless story. You just have to really resolve yourself to filling in gaps and writing as if he was never around to begin with.

Great, now I'll have to write a one shot for this. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[amielleon]

I want to see a dark comedy novelization of Lyn's Tale.

--

Mostly I agree with this post but don't have a lot to say at this point, especially having talked my face off in my earlier post.

Re: That article. What's wrong with enjoying it straight up the first time and then rereading it for the amazing details? My method of choice.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I want to see a dark comedy novelization of Lyn's Tale.

Go Ammie Go

what are you waiting for :P

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I would even just read a straight-up comedy version of it just don't make me finish mine plz

Funny how, of all the novelizations out there...like, how many are actually just straight-up humor? I wouldn't expect dark humor but at LEAST regular humor, right?

no? okay, well...FINE FE FANDOM BE THAT WAY

NO LAUGHING IN FANDOM

LAUGHING MEANS YOU LOST THE GAME

srs fic only need apply

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

I want to see a dark comedy novelization of Lyn's Tale.

Seconding.

[kyusil.livejournal.com]

This was a good read. It's nice to see points summed up like this, since for me, at least, judging a story is very much "I know badfic when I see it."

Also curious-- what do you guys think about POV in a novelization? Does a fic have to remain in the POV of a major character to be considered a novelization?

[raphiael]

I think shaking up the POV is one of the best ways to create a unique retelling, actually. As long as it's a telling of the story in novel format, it's novelization, IMO.

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

I agree with Raphi--I mean, for example, we know the entirety of Lyn's story from her point of view, and/or the tactician's, but I don't think the PoV dictates whether something is a novelization or not. It's just an adaption of a game in the form of the novel, and as long as it stays true to the basics of the story, it can, I think, be called a novelization.

Also, multiple PoVs ftw. xD

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

"I know badfic when I see it."

Hah. Well, I've seen a few stabs at Lyn's Tale that weren't badfic by any means, yet I still didn't like them, and I wanted to analyze why.

Does a fic have to remain in the POV of a major character to be considered a novelization?

No. It's not as though many novel-to-film adaptations that succeed on their own as films hew that closely to the text. IMO, if you really want to make a game into a novel, in addition to adding and subtracting text to make the thing work, POV shift is almost necessary to make it work. It's certainly a very nice bonus-- there's an FE11 adaptation I'm enjoying very much that's fleshing out a number the minor bosses and examining what the "noble defector" types are doing before they defect, and it's a treat.

And if you stick with one POV character, that'll shape the story. Eliwood will not tell a story the same way Hector might. And (total personal opinion here)-- I don't necessarily find Lyn's POV all that interesting, at least not the way she's often written. Eliwood's more thoughtful approach, or Hector's impulsive one, might make for a better story.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Also saying no, here.

But if you're looking for getting readers/feedback, it's worth using the POV (I'm assuming you mean one POV not multiple) of a character that is at least well-enough liked that the idea of reading something from them won't turn people off to the idea.

However, I'm all about multiple POVs in a novelization. Even the game shows us that-- but they usually fail to show different sides to a character, so even though they show us, say, Lundgren, he's just making evil commentary and we're not actually seeing any more concerning him. :/

[bkamiro.livejournal.com]

Hello Mark of the Asphodel. I hope you don't mind me dropping by and sharing my thoughts on your post.

I agree with much of what you have said regarding novelizations. I thought your point regarding character death was particularly valid. War dramas such as Catch-22 just wouldn't have the same impact upon the reader if no one ever died. The whole significance of the Catch-22 hinges upon the idea that the only way out is through death. Unless the novelization is being written solely for comedy (which I feel some novelizations such as crosstrigger333's Trials of a Teenage Tactician do), then there needs to be character death. I think this is particularly true if you are writing an FE7 novelization with a tactician. One of the best methods for developing the tactician as a character is to have him/her make a mistake that costs someone their life. Now the tactician must wrestle with the guilt and try to become stronger/better in order to improve.

I liked the points you made regarding Lyn's Tale as well, particularly regarding deviating from canon if the story does not intend to be a comedy. I do find it sad how there is practically a stigma against FE7 novelizations at this point with how many Mary/Marty Sue tactician fics we see but I also agree that the sheer number of poorly written novelizations can make one hesitant to pick up another one.

Thanks for sharing this bit. I truly found it interesting and I hope I'll be able to incorporate some of your ideas into my FE7 novelization, "Playing with Fire." If you have anything further you'd like to discuss, I am more than open and willing.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Don't mind a bit. Discussion is what we're all about here.

One of the best methods for developing the tactician as a character is to have him/her make a mistake that costs someone their life. Now the tactician must wrestle with the guilt and try to become stronger/better in order to improve.

This is true. Though that effect could be created through just having a character maimed, the irreversible nature of death has a greater impact. And, given that irreversible death is a hallmark of the series, and the very idea of Casual Mode upset some fans, I find it amusing that writers are so unwilling to make use of death in their writing.

I also agree that the sheer number of poorly written novelizations can make one hesitant to pick up another one.

Well, there are certainly an amazing number of them-- but what got under my skin is the first place was how uninterested I felt after reading a chapter or two of extremely competent Lyn's Tale stories. Something just wasn't working, and it took a few months to realize that the "comedy tricked out as tragedy" aspect is a big part of it.

If you have anything further you'd like to discuss, I am more than open and willing.

Sure. I'm always up for an FE discussion.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I find it amusing that writers are so unwilling to make use of death in their writing.

I think this is because the game's main focus is on winning with losing no units at all.

However, I personally feel that you have two options re: novelization and deaths:

1. Kill off characters, or
2. Don't kill off characters.

If you go with option #1 there is plenty of character development and/or et cetera, like bkamiro said above. I mean, there is a lot you can do with killing off characters! (Which is why I personally was going with #1 myself)

If you take #2 there really needs to be a reason why-- or, if you're in a game where there's an actual military and your main characters happen to be a part of it (à la FE10) then the best thing to do is to at least show that people are dying-- just not your main cast!

That said, it's sometimes not enough for other people to die, and if you can't bear to part with main characters, I kind of feel a person shouldn't bother killing off anyone at all, i.e., killing off Fiona in an FE10 adaptation would really not have much of an impact on the reader (aside from the person or two in fandom that really likes her), so killing her off to try to prove SEE GAIZ PPL DIE just isn't going to work.

It can still have huuuge effects on other people, though. But if you're writing an IkeSoren, killing off Fiona is not going to get much of a reaction at all from the audience. (Or Ike or Soren.) So it's kind of, imo, not worth doing.

That said, for FE7 (or any novelization that has the main cast (or a part of the main cast) separated from the rest of a military unit alone), there really needs to be something THERE that makes everyone living make sense.

Not, "Teehee, it's another victory!" *V-sign, v-sign*

Cause if Eirika and 10 others are fighting even just 11 other guys, there is always the chance that EVEN ONE VS ONE, someone will lose, and that loss will equal death.

So the mental image of Eirika brofisting Forde and being all

YEAH WE'RE AWESOME

Just doesn't fit.

And same with Eliwood and Co. If they're up against morphs, there could be more than double their numbers-- numbers won a lot of wars then (not necessarily skill, as skill caaaaan be useful but I'd wage it's not so useful as it could be on the battlefield). So. If they're getting out unscathed. Just. They should be praying or kissing the ground or some shit. Cause it'd be a literal miracle they survived.

A legit miracle. And they'd KNOW IT TOO.
I doubt many would take it for granted.

ALSO

It wouldn't hurt to maim someone or two or three someones. You know, just "keeping it real". Or as real as a fantasy strategy game can be if nobody actually dies.

But again, I go with killing people (and maiming people) because it gives your audience...idk, something to worry about. :P And because it can create tension, character development, and most importantly, if you kill off the right people, you can make your audience CRY.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I think this is because the game's main focus is on winning with losing no units at all.

So why spazz out over Casual Mode if death always makes one hit the reset button anyway? FE fandom, I do not get thee.

But if you're writing an IkeSoren, killing off Fiona is not going to get much of a reaction at all from the audience. (Or Ike or Soren.)

Hahaha. I've kind of played with that in longer FE11 stories, though-- start by killing off a few characters no one gives a crap about, and then up the stakes by offing, say, Caeda.

So the mental image of Eirika brofisting Forde and being all

YEAH WE'RE AWESOME

Just doesn't fit.

FE8 does have the Frelian army backing our heroes for a large chunk of the story, but your point definitely stands for the earlier chapters.

numbers won a lot of wars then

So did superior weapons. I mean, I hate it when 'fic talks about Brave Lances and Killing Edges, but having your crappy little army confronted by a Lunatic Mode enemy squad of pre-promotes equipped with silver weapons is a pretty damn scary scenario. There's got to be a way to make those in-game "Oh shit" moments translate into prose.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

There kind of is a way to translate those oh-shit moments.

Basically, superior weapons and craftmanship would be even more well-known by the characters.

For example, Wil and Rath could be like, the greatest archers EVER, but if they've got tired old worn bows they've been using for years, and/or the string's not as taut as it could be, and/or their arrows aren't very good or well-made, or the fletching is just shabby, then they're not going to be able to do their job to the best of their ability!

Same goes for, say, Raven. If he's got a worn, cheaply-made sword (and this might be all he can afford), all that's going to save him in a 1 vs. 1 match is skill. It might be hard to translate to fic in a general manner and without infodumping, but I guess in regular conversation someone might make an offhand comment about needing their weapon(s) sharpened, and someone else might say, aw, yeah, me too man, mine needs some work, or my blade's getting dull, or something like that.

And before they get to a town, maybe those same people are like, aw shit, soldiers from X place. Well you know their weapons are ready for battle.

Might not really impress the situation upon the audience the same as telling them exactly what it means in plain text, but it's better than calling a sword a "killing edge" or a "silver sword", you know?

I'm sure there's a nation or two in each game that is known for their superior weaponry.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

The Bad Guys are too stupid/careless to win.

This is the actual subtitle of FE6. It happens many, many times, but the most hilarious instance is in Chapter 3, in which Zephiel and Narshen conveniently leave the battlefield for no real reason apart from the game writers derping.

Roy's story, otherwise, would have ended right there.

As for authors being afraid to write death, I, ah, must be weird. :-)

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

Heh, thanks for the rec :)

I've always felt that the best stories are the ones where the author's playing for keeps. Even if the characters don't end up kicking the bucket, a conflict with serious ramifications is much more interesting to me than a conflict with an obvious or easy solution.

(which isn't to say I don't like happy endings--the writer's gotta earn it, though :P)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Well, and if they're not willing to play for keeps, don't telegraph otherwise. I mean, if people want to write happy fluffy fantasy-war stories, fine. But don't set something up as a gritty tale of war and then not follow through. That feels cheap, and I'm doubly burned for having been suckered into reading it.