Fire Emblem Red and Blue

[mark_asphodel]

So, that rumor about the new "Fire Emblem Blue Sacred Sword and Red Demon Lance" game is really making tracks.  Still seems to be horseshit, though, and not just on account of the ridiculous name or the introduction of bizarro new elements (the titular weapons) into Elibe.  I mean, after some of the crap IS pulled in FE12, I'm not willing to say anything is out of the question, but this rumor seems to have stemmed from 2ch, which has spawned other garbage "leaks" in the past.


This post here at Serenes Forest covers some of the other rumors to come out of 2ch:


1) An FE8 sequel set twenty years later (3DS).  No thanks.  Reminds me of my joke story about "Prince Etain" coming to town.  You get an FE game set 20 years after an existing game, that means characters you know and love are D-E-D dead. 


2) New FEs for the Wii and 3DS to be announced at E3 2011.  Didn't happen.


3) 20th anniversary game for the Wii to come out in 2010.  Didn't happen.


4) Wii Fire Emblem with an "all star cast" slated to come out in 2011.  Didn't happen, which is likely for the best.  I'm not even sure how that would work.


I do kind of like the idea for a Pokeymanz style FE where you trade characters back and forth between games.  Kind of, as in, it would irritate the hell out of me if they actually did it.  I also wouldn't mind a departure from the gameplay norm, at least theoretically I wouldn't.  The franchise has needed fresh ideas since FE7 (which was a kind of a fresh idea, which may account for its popularity among English-speaking fans).  FE8 was lukewarm rehash.  FE9/10 jettisoned a lot of the things that IMO made Fire Emblem, well, Fire Emblem, and in any event they didn't sell.  FE11 and FE12 were a pair of remakes-- one that didn't add enough new material to please people, and one that IMO added too damned much new material.  So, now what?


I can tell you one thing-- whatever IS does next, it will piss "the fanbase" off.  Fire Emblem fans hate everything, especially Fire Emblem.  Oh yes.

Comments

[kyusil.livejournal.com]

I can tell you one thing-- whatever IS does next, it will piss "the fanbase" off. Fire Emblem fans hate everything, especially Fire Emblem.

Isn't this true of... well, video games in general? So many of the more vocal gamers seem to hate innovation and stagnation equally, which doesn't leave much room for the developers to tread if that's who they're listening to.

I'm all for a change of genre, and I think it's just the kind of revitalization the series needs. IS did it already with Super Paper Mario, and they've certainly got enough experience in their belt to pull something off.

...FE/Puzzle League crossover, anyone? :D

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

So many of the more vocal gamers seem to hate innovation and stagnation equally, which doesn't leave much room for the developers to tread if that's who they're listening to.

It's ridiculous. It's like the reception FE12 got before anyone had even played it-- "Oh no, another remake! We want a new game, IS. Unless it's an FE4 remake. Or an FE6 remake. Yeah."

So, guys, what do you actually want?

...FE/Puzzle League crossover, anyone? :D

Hah.

As long as they don't change it to something requiring hand-eye coordination and quick reflexes. Then I'm sunk.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

If there was an FE puzzle league type game I would be

allllllllll over it.

all. over. it.

[raphiael]

Ahahahaha. So I guess we're more like the FF fanbase than I thought. Every new addition is terrible; the last one whoever is posting about liked should have been the last one ever made; blah blah blah.

Nothing new under the sun, indeed.

I'd be less worried over the potential canon offings in a sequel, and more worried over the whining about whose kid is probably whose, myself. 9__9
PRINCESS SUSIE OF RENAIS TOTALLY HAS TANA'S EYES YOU GUYS
BUT IN HER SUPPORTS, SHE MENTIONS FISH - RAUSTEN TOTALLY HAD FISH
No thanks.

[thenicochan.livejournal.com]

And then the super secret endgame scene reveals that Susie is the daughter of Eirika and Gerik. Because no one cast resist Gerik.

PLOT TWIST

[raphiael]

So canon, it hurts.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

I can tell you one thing-- whatever IS does next, it will piss "the fanbase" off. Fire Emblem fans hate everything, especially Fire Emblem. Oh yes.

See also: Pokemon fandom. Everything new is a sign that the franchise is "OMG RUINED FOREVER!!"

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Actually, the B/W Pokemon strike me as singularly unappealing. I have no desire whatsoever to play that game.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair B/W DID take a lot of new directions that could be jarring for most. Plus Garbodor disgusting. (Not that Muk wasn't, of course.)

[shimizu-hitomi.livejournal.com]

For me it wasn't even a design issue. I had pretty much the same reaction to B/W as I did to FE12. They both had kind of a cheap fanservicey feel to them (ESPECIALLY in the way the plots were handled) and both games were ultimately trying to do very similar things imo from a commercial standpoint. Except B/W was slightly more palatable to me because it wasn't... a remake, for one thing, and my expectations for Pokemon as a franchise are entirely different.

Oh well.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I haven't been interested in Pokemon for quite a few years because it's the same-old, same-old. At least in FE you can make the unlikable characters WORK-- in Pokemon, not so much. There are, literally, USELESS pokemon.

[thenicochan.livejournal.com]

Fire Emblem fans are just as annoying and pretentious as any gamer fandom. Everytime something new comes out there are "serious issues" with it. Not enough "fresh ideas" except when there are and then they are "awful ideas." Overall, the later FE games tried to do a lot of interesting new stuff, such as FE8's small cast + monsters + Post-Game Adventures and FE9's reintroduction of skills, the Laguz, the way supports were handled and BEXP.

Of course, those that hate those games will say Laguz are useless, skills are stupid, monsters make the game to easy, ect ect.

It's like the FF fanbase but smaller. But whenever they do announce a new game, wether it be a remake or not, it will have cries of RUINED FOREVER.

[raphiael]

LOL, at least we don't have people writing fanfics about characters exclusive to games that haven't even been released yet.

That'll be the day when I start clutching my pearls over new games for serious XD;

[kyusil.livejournal.com]

*puts away epic Rau/Leia love story* ._.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

No, but sillybillies over at GameFaqs are already speculating about Rau and Leia appearing in the next SSB game. :P

"Maybe we'll get the lance user! I hope it's the princess!"

[raphiael]

Oh fffffffffff, seriously, come on.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-wii-u/60115883?page=1

Scroll down. This is one of the tamer speculations, but I've lost track of the real stupidity.

[raphiael]

Oh.

Oh wow.

Oh yes, this is a special breed of nonsense.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

The FE contingent of the SSB world live in fantasyland. Actual facts are irrelevant to the conventional wisdom. Such as it is.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Fire Emblem fans are just as annoying and pretentious as any gamer fandom.

I've always found them worse than average, actually. IMO, there's a camp that worships FE4, another camp that can't move on from FE7, and they both act like dicks.

That said, FE8 (despite the highly likable cast) was a sign that the wheels were coming off.

[thenicochan.livejournal.com]

I dunno...I think all fandoms are kinda like that, ahaha.

That said, FE8 (despite the highly likable cast) was a sign that the wheels were coming off.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Are you saying the series started sucking around then? If so, I would have to disagree. FE9 and 10 have, IMO, the best gameplay and most story depth, as well as some of the best world-building in the series...not to mention popularity (and in FE10's case a return to a more difficult style of gameplay, but without being over difficult like FE6)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Are you saying the series started sucking around then?

FE8 was begun after FE9 started development and finished earlier (normal enough for a handheld vs a console). It was a space-filler, and IMO it shows in the very sketchy worldbuilding in particular. Elibe, even based off FE7 alone, felt like a world with things going on out of the player's immediate focus. Magvel really doesn't have that, and it has a number of WTF plot and characterization elements between the routes that make for great 'fic fodder but are a sign, IMO, that everything wasn't thought through. Basically, this game was designed to the old NES/SNES thematic template, swiping mechanics from FE2 and great chunks of plot from FE3, with the trademark "dragon" business shoehorned instead of feeling organic to the world.

I like the game, but to me it demonstrates that the franchise had pretty well exhausted the old tropes and needed the new direction that Tellius provided. However...

not to mention popularity

They bombed in the home market and are responsible for IS's retreat from console games. Doesn't matter if they're popular with the English-speaking fanbase. They were expensive to make and they underperformed. If just wish I'd archived the article where IS literally announced their disappointment with 10's sales and their intention to concentrate on handheld games, because the perception that they did well is completely at odds with IS's perception. And IS's perception is the only thing that matters when it comes down to, "Are we gonna get a new game, and what's it gonna be?"

And the current generation of handheld FEs have been exclusively remakes... only one of which reached international markets. So, regardless of quality (FE5, the franchise sales crater, is beloved among those who've played it) or gameplay or anything else, at present 9 and 10 represent a dead end for a franchise whose next move really can't be anticipated, and whose international viability is at least debatable now.

So, yes. The wheels came off after FE7. It's not a matter of "sucking," it's a matter of vision and performance. FE8 is a likable game that betrays a lack of vision. FE9 and FE10 did not have their new vision translate into sales. FE11 was a deliberate retrenchment. And FE12 is still Japan-only... which means we're back to pre-7 levels of availability.

[amielleon]

The laguz are, on a whole, objectively not worthwhile.

I've played FE9 through using only laguz and required units. I've played FE10 with the ultimate goal of bringing only non-royal laguz in as my optional units. I've played both using only a few laguz sprinkled into a larger team like they were intended to be used.

No thanks. The laguz have some extremely deep mechanical issues, mostly surrounding exp (and in RD, wexp) that make them not worthwhile. I can tl;dr more about this but I doubt you signed up to hear it. :P

That said I like FE9/10 mechanically as a whole, especially 10.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I thought 9/10 did well mechanically as a whole, too. The laguz were really bleh to me, too. (^For those reasons, also, I believe.)

[thenicochan.livejournal.com]

I dunno...I mean, in FE10 the Laguz tend to have a hard time due to transformation issues (though this doesn't bother royals at all, nor is it much concern for Ulki, Janaff, Ranulf, Skrimir or Giffca who are all pretty damn powerful when you receive them), but FE9 is a bit of a different story. The Laguz pretty much get EXP like a promoted unit does, and both Mordy/Lethe are pretty uber when you get them...

I dunno. I liked the way they worked in PoR quite a bit, they just tend to be kinda 'meh' in FE10, but even there some have their uses.

[amielleon]

They definitely have their uses. Especially in FE10, where almost every unit has a use at some point in the game. What I mean to say is that in the long run, a beorc of an equivalent level (and the laguz generally come at exaggeratedly high levels) and comparable class would almost certainly be superior.

Mordy and Lethe, when you get them, are levels 2 and 3. A paladin at level 2 (and not a prepromote, since laguz do not make such a distinction) on those chapters would be similarly uber, would be able to make ranged attacks, and would not have the difficulties of a transformation gauge.

Also, we are not talking about herons, dragons, and royals, who are different stories indeed.

The problem they had in PoR was with leveling. The laguz were quite powerful in early-game, but as the game progressed their power diminished proportionally, for two reasons: their bonus was fixed and their gains were average, and they could not upgrade weapons as the beorc around them were doing. RD sought to address this by making them double stats when transformed (instead of adding a fixed bonus) and adding wexp. Unfortunately, the former made them far more delicate in the event of untransformation, fickler in terms of gains by bexp, and the latter was not a significant contribution as the laguz were unlikely to see enough battle to significantly improve their weapon levels.

The Laguz pretty much get EXP like a promoted unit does,

This is, incidentally, exactly the problem. Transformed they gain exp at a level higher than the rest of your party, which is to say that they get like 10 exp for a kill on a good day. It varies a bit -- Lethe and Mordecai hardly get anything at all when you first get them in PoR. In late-game RD their exp gains are somewhat more reasonable.

However, for any significant amount of leveling, especially earlier in the game (so, let's say if you want to use Kyza or Lyre), it is necessary to kill opponents in the untransformed state. There are two ways to do this: killing an enemy with the retaliatory attack, or using a magic card. The former requires carefully anticipating an enemy response, with that enemy on low hp, and avoiding the laguz getting criticalled or something. The latter involves carefully locating enemies with low enough res to take out, and then carefully hitting them down to 1~3 hp. Both do not increase weapon exp at all. And the exp gained is far greater, but still not incredible.

---

I'm not saying the laguz are total junk. They are often momentarily useful. Just really, really subpar in the long run.

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

Regardless of what happens, people are going to be pissed off--we're just as pretentious as any other gaming fanbase, and somehow things just get nastier because we're such a relatively smaller (and, by extension, a closer-knit) fandom. So seeing the fan reaction will be... Interesting, to say the least.

Though seeing what "new" sort of thing IS comes up with will be equally (if not more) interesting, I think. :P

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

The gamer wing of fandom and the fiction-writing wing don't intersect much, IMO, and the gamers are the people I generally want to punch.

[shimizu-hitomi.livejournal.com]

Are people just glomming onto this one because of the details? (I gather previous rumors were not quite so... specific)

Yeesh.

See, the kind of gameplay switchup I'd really be into would be along the lines of Tear Ring/Berwick Saga (although maybe Berwick veers too far again from the modern iterations of FE.) Dunno, every time I think of FE8 and TRS and what "could have been" in terms of the branching storylines I just get annoyed. :/

At any rate, after FE12 I think the worst thing they could do right now is another remake or a revisit of one of the old universes. I'd much rather see them try to be... creative. (even if it pisses off a lot of people, haha. But I am just so puzzled/tired of remake culture recently...)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Are people just glomming onto this one because of the details? (I gather previous rumors were not quite so... specific)

I'd say details + Elibe + hunger for first-party 3DS titles.

Dunno, every time I think of FE8 and TRS and what "could have been" in terms of the branching storylines I just get annoyed. :/

Hah!

All I can say is that I'm fairly certain the next one won't be a console game. That's as far as I'm willing to go.

[amielleon]

Some people balk, and some people don't. I recall the LJ fandom glomming onto FE8 and FE9 as the BEST THINGS EVAR!!!11 back when they first came out. I think forum culture tends to be much more OMG THEY RUINED IT!!! in their response, from my entirely subjective observations.

It is curious what kind of things fans hold as Fire Emblem tradition, given that each subsequent continent (and sometimes different games within the same continent -- lookin' at you, Thracia) has had radical differences in the nuances of their mechanics.

IMO it doesn't even any less traditional than Jugdral.

But clearly Jugdral was made too long ago to be untraditional.

Eyeroll.

Incidentally, I believe there was unit borrowing in the DS games? Or maybe just FE11.

And I don't need to say it, but I loved the gameplay changes in 9/10. Especially 10, as they smoothed out the majority of issues in 9. Although Guard + Vantage is still my favorite stupid cheap thing to do with the skill system in 9.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Forum fandom is where I get most of my observations from; I have no idea what the prevailing views among LJers are because I see such a small portion at any given time.

IMO it doesn't even any less traditional than Jugdral.

I find it hilarious that English-speaking forum goers seem to have this massive blind spot regarding FE1/FE3 when it seems fairly obvious that those are the template games, and that FE4 is as much an aberration as FE2. :/

Unit borrowing in the FE11 games only worked for multiplayer, IIRC. Not for the main game.

When I complain about FE9/10 being "not exactly Fire Emblem" I don't mean the gameplay, I mean the plot/thematic elements. At the base of it, the mythos Does Not Appeal to me, and the Dragon God Puppeteer thing, despite my dislike of fantasy dragons overall, does.

[amielleon]

My brother told me that in FE11 you could borrow a unit for the main game and they'd earn exp as if they were the level of that unit once you returned them. I never tried it personally so he could just be shitting me, though.

FE9/10 do decidedly diverge from the feel of the others. Personally I find the humanizing of the dragons, the non-absolute-evil endboss, and the agency of commoners to be welcome changes. It does have a lot of smaller cute nods to the legacy though -- the volcano chapter, the desert chapter, dragonstones, dark magic eating your soul.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

That does ring a bell. IDK, most of the people I knew who played FE11 back in '09 were playing for multiplayer mode, so I wasn't paying so much attention.

the non-absolute-evil endboss

Idoun might not be the best example, but Doma wasn't evil in FE2. He didn't need to be destroyed any more than Mila did-- it was both of them meddling in human affairs that was the problem. And actually, I rather like Medeus in his role as a kind of cosmic avenger who pops up to screw with humans when they get too brutish and nasty.

Bad guys who aren't all evil for the sake of being "evil" is one thing I've liked about Fire Emblem overall. It's also a reason Fomortiis isn't a particularly compelling endboss. Not that I find Ashnard compelling, either...

[amielleon]

Multiplayer excited me until I realized that there was a lot of arena whoring and clock abuse to get your foot in the door. Also, playing on normal mode. All that to hang out with people who turn off the DS if they're about to lose.

I believe Ashnard was meant to be the sociopathic chaos figure in contrast to Ashera's sociopathic order figure. (Yune was loved too much to be sociopathic.) Nonetheless he certainly reads like a cartoony evil figure so I grant you that.

FE2 is a topic I am completely ignorant of, I'm afraid.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Multiplayer excited me until I realized that there was a lot of arena whoring and clock abuse to get your foot in the door... All that to hang out with people who turn off the DS if they're about to lose.

Yeah, that was multiplayer in a nutshell. Plus the players with improbably maxed stats and hacked Imhullu tomes.

FE2 is a topic I am completely ignorant of, I'm afraid.

One of these days, Raphi needs to do that FE2-->FE10 god-duality meta she was threatening earlier.

[amielleon]

Improbably maxed stats is probably a product of said clock abuse. Serenes has a link to a thread about this.

While I'm apparently replaying half the series this summer, I should get around to reading SH's Fe2 script.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Maxed stats are possible with clock abuse (which is why I said "improbable"), but when you encounter, say, a Marth with 25 MAG? No, sorry, not buying it.

Not that anyone should bother using him on multiplayer anyway.

And the prevalence of hackers in multiplayer mode cast suspicion on the people who really did craft perfect teams through working at it. It was just bad all around. Did make for some interesting "catch the hacker" posts, though.

[amielleon]

Oh, yeah. There are teams that have good stats where a clock abuser wouldn't bother to hit; I agree, hackers were rampant too.

I think multiplayer might've been interesting with stock team options, much like autoweapon. Even the legit scene was quite undesirably (IMO) flash-fire what with brave weapon forging.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Weapon forging was one of my favorite things about FE11. Not the ridiculous god-weapon stuff, but the ability to take javelins and hand axes and make them really useful. I miss that ability every time I play FE7 or FE8 and miss with a stupid hand axe.

[amielleon]

Tellius says hi. Generally I liked the idea of weapon forging in FE11 and FE12, but I think the limitations were far too lax. It turned a useful feature into a broken one.

[raphiael]

I would have been so much more into the whole Demon King business if there was some reasoning behind it. It was just the vaguest "mwahaha I will rule stuff because" routine. Pretty hard to get behind.
:/

With you on Ashnard as well.

[writerawakened.livejournal.com]

the humanizing of the dragons

I dunno, I thought Fa/Idun/Ninian/Nils/Myrrh were humanized plenty in their respective games.

[amielleon]

I thought they read like exotic beings that had the mental facilities of their physical age and wisdom beyond that only when plot-important. Jfen's dragon child porn reaffirms my belief that their portrayal is practically fetishistic. It's the othering problem with Lyn, but people don't balk as much because Sacaeans are closer to home than dragons.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'm a selfish bitch, and IDGAF if they come out with a new FE game or not. Nobody's happy if they do, and nobody's happy if they don't. It's like, no-win no matter how you look at it. (nobody winsss, we all lose, hearts get broken and love gets bruiseddddd ♪)

sigh

oh gamer fandoms.
oh

fe fandom. :|

[kelsper.livejournal.com]

Not happening. Though I'm not doubting a Fire Emblem game will come out for the 3DS eventually...

And I'm one of those that was less then pleased with FE8, mainly because it copies FE2, which would probably be my favourite FE game, and misses its mark while doing it. Hnng.

Apart from that, I couldn't say I "disliked" any other game, really.