Notes and Errata of Mark of the Asphodel

Well, usually the dark speculations are hinted at in canon somewhere. Where does it say anything other than that Vigarde was a good man and a just ruler, who wasn't so nice after he was a resurrected zombie taking orders from the Demon King? Why jump to making him a child molester?

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sarajayechan.livejournal.com

This is also true, yes. If there's dark speculation to be had there's usually a reason for it.

And sadly, this isn't the first time recently I've facepalmed at people assuming a villain was molested as a child just because they're messed up. :/ People are waaayyy too quick to tack on Rape As Backstory in general, and this kind of thing is even worse.

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raphiael

I have serious objections to pointing to any kind of trauma as a complete cause for a character's state of mind, no matter how good or bad the outcome is. I think there's a distinction to be made, though, between saying "I think this could have happened" and "I think this is why so-and-so is like this."

Like, for example, Lucius gets pinned a lot as having been abused somehow as a child. I can totally see this having happened. But I always feel put off when people write him as a perma-woobie and pin it on that assumed abuse. I probably come from a bit of a personal stance there, but yes, it is a huge peeve.

Have seen similar things with Lyon in the villain department, and again - there's a difference between thinking something was amiss in Grado (and oh boy, what wasn't amiss in Grado), and saying Lyon went batty purely because of some past trauma, rather than pinning it on, well, his own decisions.

I imagine this is anon meme stuff? I'm not up to speed on it (and would like to stay that way), but I've seen it elsewhere as well.

ETA: Also, wtf at that review? At least say something about the story itself =___=

Edited Date: 2011-08-13 09:47 pm (UTC)

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Yes, anon meme. Specifically regarding Lyon.

Like, for example, Lucius gets pinned a lot as having been abused somehow as a child. I can totally see this having happened.

To be fair, this is also hinted at in the script. FE throws a lot of dodgy out there without elaboration, and a lot of the darker lines of speculation some out of these ambiguous hints. If there was something indicating Vigarde was a child molester, I missed it.

rather than pinning it on, well, his own decisions.

Bingo. And I think that the FE franchise as a whole is generally very consistent about holding characters who do wrong-- even well-intentioned wrong-- responsible. Your plan for saving the world including killing some poor dude, and his son came back years later and stabbed you? Your own fault. Your wife didn't put out and you decided to take your revenge out on the entire continent? Your own fault. You decided to mess around with VERY DARK MAGIC because you wanted to help people? Shouldn't have done that, buddy.

Basically, I'm not going to be in favor of anything that lets Lyon off the hook, and especially not this.

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raphiael

I'm not terribly surprised - piling angst on Lyon and blaming that, rather than the intensely messed up decisions he made, is pretty common in the Lyon fic I've seen. Vigarde. . . cold and maybe condescending? Sure. Molesting? Eh. . . There's not enough there to say "definitely no", but I mean, doesn't Lyon have enough angst already? If there's one character who doesn't need yet another complex, it's him.

Oh yes, definitely - canon definitely points to unfortunate background for Lucius. But it's not at all realistic to jump to the Lifetime Movie esque "he was molested/beaten/taunted! He'll never, ever be okay with people! 100% full of angst, forever! The angst is to blame for everything!" And that's the kind of thing that really sets my teeth on edge, the idea that past horrors come to completely define a character, and everything they do is because of that.

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If there's one character who doesn't need yet another complex, it's him.

Well, and the flip side to that is-- why does he need another "reason" to bring the DK into things? I think the game makes the case for his tragic flaws pretty well.

the idea that past horrors come to completely define a character, and everything they do is because of that.

Yeah. That's just cheap and disrespectful.

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raphiael

Absolutely agreed. I think while the external influences on Lyon - his father's disappointment, his own physical failings, the potential for complete disaster in Grado - factored into his decision, the reason he's the villain is because in the end, he did make that decision. If it's pushed onto "all these things made him do it", then it really takes away everything, IMO, that makes him interesting as a character. You have plenty of characters who have horrible things happen to them, and yet, they don't decide to play with terrible, forbidden artifacts to see how it'll work. They might be tempted, sure -- but it's Lyon who succumbs, and that's what sets him apart. Same for every other villain in the franchise, really, with only a few exceptions.

I think he's one case where people see the sympathetic side of him pushed by the twins - that kind, gentle, sweet Lyon - and run with it. I mean, there aren't many apologists for. . . say, Nergal. Or Ashnard. But Lyon has all the "he used to be so awesome" right there - and then we get back to the fandom aversion of good people willingly doing bad things, and it gets messy.

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They might be tempted, sure -- but it's Lyon who succumbs, and that's what sets him apart.

Word. It's not like this isn't an important point to most or even all of the games!

I mean, there aren't many apologists for. . . say, Nergal. Or Ashnard.

And yet Nergal has the more sympathetic backstory by far, IMO.

and then we get back to the fandom aversion of good people willingly doing bad things, and it gets messy.

And some day, we'll talk about what mercenaries of any stripe actually do for a living and what all the "noble deserters" of FE were up to before they deserted.

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raphiael

I never really thought of Nergal as sympathetic, myself. I found most of him to be too vaguely defined to care one way or another.

But then, I never really went through an "oh poor Lyon" feeling, either, so I guess there is that. And the ultra-woobie victim mode he's stuck in is one of the main reasons I don't like Eirika's route as much. Soooo maybe I'm not the most trustworthy source on villainous sob stories.

. . .You know, actually, I've had a "serious business" mercenary idea cooking for some time. Maybe I should actually utilize it.

The more I think about it, the more I realize - we're quite willing to explore "dark" subjects if a sympathetic character is the "victim, or at least what our viewpoint would perceive as the victim. Prostitution, child abuse, slavery, everything, usually explored as having happened to a character we're meant to feel for. But I really wonder what might happen with a serious exploration of a loved character doing something in-character, and yet definitely unpleasant, without that element of "done under duress".

Something to think about, I guess :D

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I never really thought of Nergal as sympathetic, myself.

I just meant the backstory re: wife and kids. That genuinely surprised me. His actions after going nuts? Don't care, really.

But then, I never really went through an "oh poor Lyon" feeling, either, so I guess there is that.

Yeah, I didn't either. I found him pretty antipathetic on EirRoute. EphRoute was more interesting, but hardly... likable.

we're quite willing to explore "dark" subjects if a sympathetic character is the "victim, or at least what our viewpoint would perceive as the victim.

Exactly. All too often, with a side of fetish fuel, esp. with prostitution and slavery.

But I really wonder what might happen with a serious exploration of a loved character doing something in-character, and yet definitely unpleasant, without that element of "done under duress".

Like Hector deliberately poisoning Eliwood? ;)

IDK. That's part of what I looooooved about my initial writing spree for FE11. In the gap between FE11 and FE12, I had leeway to have New and Improved!Marth get up to some things that weren't actually... nice. Though I never finished/published a number of the things I began back then. FE12 makes it a lot harder to get into that mode.

[My headcanon still says Gra got trashed during FE11. We know they're in ruins by the time the sequel hits, and so either a) they did it to themselves b) it was their craptastic allies or c) remember that, uh, invading army led by someone with a major bone to pick against Gra?Hmm.]

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raphiael

Ahhhhh, I see what you mean. Yeah, just looking purely at backstory and not at outcome, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Incidentally, separating my own lack of sympathy from what the characters I tend to write feel about Lyon is pretty much the hardest part of writing FE8 for me. But definitely agreed - even looking at the gushing from certain characters in Magvel, it's pretty hard, either way, for me to actually like Lyon. I can't get into thinking of him in a really woobie-ish victim light.

Definitely true, re:fetish fuel. I mean, the people funding those practices aren't anyone sympathetic, usually - unless it's a "men being men" kind of story, in which case, an offhanded mention of wages going to less-than-wholesome pursuits just goes to show how "gritty" your story is. :\

(Of course, canon, as expected, is guilty of this, too - the worst racism we get from a sympathetic character in Tellius, for example, is just repetition of slurs rather than respectful names. You only see the bad guys actually engaging in the worst of it.)

But definitely agreed, re:Gra. I just can't buy, no matter how kind and understanding you see the player characters being in-game, that there's not a single atrocity perpetuated by the "good guy" army. Whether it's a nameless mook, or a character you control, it's war. No one's going to come out of it completely as the "better man".

. . . I should really get around to expanding that Hector story. I really want to go into more detail with it, aha.

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it's pretty hard, either way, for me to actually like Lyon.

I think he's a creepy little fucker, honestly. Also... I know I rag on Lyon as Hardin-in-a-lilac-wig, but at least Hardin had a string of massive accomplishments to his name before he turned. Lyon... had potential. Then he fucked up, destroyed many nations and lives, and died.

Shit, characters like Trabant probably did more good in the world to balance the harm.

I just can't buy, no matter how kind and understanding you see the player characters being in-game, that there's not a single atrocity perpetuated by the "good guy" army.

Yes. Especially when dealing with actual professional armies (as opposed to Lyn's posse in FE7). At least FE4 acknowledged that Patty was stealing stuff to keep Celice's group going.

No one's going to come out of it completely as the "better man".

I mean, the two countries stated to be "devastated" by the FE11 war just so happen to be the ones on Marth's hit list. Are we not supposed to make the connection there?

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raphiael

That is a fabulously apt description.

Yeah, the most I can say for Lyon is that he did save a few people before the whole Demon King business - if I'm remembering right, he saved a bunch of ships from a storm, and uhhhhh. . .a burn victim? Something like that.

But. . . even if it's not at all exaggerated (and I mean half of it comes from Knoll fangirling), there's still the matter that unlike characters like, as you said, Hardin, he spent most of the time angsting about how much he sucked. I guess it's relatable, but it's in an ugly way, not in a noble, tragic hero way.

I mean, he's got a pile of people who thought he was awesome, and a nice little selection of generals who probably would have backed him up if he'd failed as emperor. I just can't see how turning on all that can be painted as tragic for anyone but the countless people he screwed over. Hardin? Sure, he's a great man - at least in terms of practical deeds - who collapsed in the end. Sephiran? Yeah, definitely. But Lyon? Nope.

Re: Gra, it is a pretty suspect connection. What I've seen of FE12 seems to just shrug vaguely in that general direction, though, right? Kind of bites, but I wouldn't discount the idea anyway. It really makes entirely too much sense, given everything leading up to it.

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I honestly feel people try doing that with villains they want to like, or they would think they would look odd for liking, I've seen it in a lot of series fandoms, and just... I feel it kinda demeans the whole thing of them being a villain, and if unrealistic enough knida disrespectful towards people who have gone through those type of things. Giving every villain ever a freudian excuse is... kinda lame I think, ESPECIALLY when there was no hint of it. Sadly it happens a lot...

I wonder if the Demon King was abused as a young Demonling, that's TOTALLY why he's so evil, he's not really evil! THe Demon King is totally a woobie!

But all joking aside, I agree with you.

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I honestly feel people try doing that with villains they want to like,

I guess. But then again, I've seen people do all kinds of mental tumbling to make media villains into not-villains. Demonizing the hero and his/her crew, claiming the author(s) of the original works "got it wrong," and so on.

I wonder if the Demon King was abused as a young Demonling, that's TOTALLY why he's so evil, he's not really evil!

Hahahahhah.

No, you only get woobified if you're pretty. Or at least slender with long hair. :P

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Eh, true that. EUgh.. I had a friend demonize (If you know Gundam) Amuro and make it out like Char is some awesome, noble guy. Had to explain that using people and making fake affairs with young girls to use them as stepping stones and betraying your best friends aren't really signs of nobility ^^;

Hey, for all you know, that demon king could really have a human form that is some kind of bishounen! I bet it's been done somewhere, I've seen what they've done with mecha. If they can turn non-living objects into people some artist somewhere has to have made a human, non Lyon form of the demon king! I will search and get back to you on that.

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I had a friend demonize (If you know Gundam) Amuro and make it out like Char is some awesome, noble guy.

That's awfully common-- main character hate with a side dish of villain apologetics. I don't think I've ever seen it reach the levels it does in Harry Potter fandom, though.

I bet it's been done somewhere, I've seen what they've done with mecha.

I've seen Meta Knight redone as a sexy human female. I mean... what?

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Draco in Leather Pants syndrome >.> It's got a whole trope on TVTropes XD;

... Part of me says 'interesting...' another part is like KILL IT WITH FIRE. I can't decide XD

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Also... Saying that original authors 'Got it wrong' is a huge disrespect IMO x.x I just... rawrrrgh. Iono, it's one thing that irks me. IF the author said something in their own universe happened some way... then it happened that way. It's like walking in on... let's say a Shakespeare play, then rearranging roles becuase you think Shakespeare got it wrong.

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I think there are some extreme examples where the author apparently doesn't give a shit about his/her own works (or is so filled with self-importance that they're borderline deranged) and just... changes things, with no explanation and no attempt to reconcile any discrepancies. Anne Rice is a prime example of this. This why I stopped reading Anne Rice.

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Ah... never read Anne Rice. I am slightly more discouraged to read her. My mother loves her, already more reason not to read it. XD

IF it's an ongoing series and something really major screws up, then I can understand that, but with most works I see people doing that with, it's usually ones with decently coherent storylines and little to no real glaring plotholes.

From:

amielleon

I recall reading a prompt in the kink meme that asked for rape with a hero and villain, with the hero's friends walking in on the event. It did not specify who would be the rapist. I remember thinking that it would be awfully interesting if the hero were the rapist....

But yeah, the trauma-pile trend is something that is irritatingly common in fandom and I unrealistically wish it were not common here.

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...

You're right. It didn't say which of them should be the aggressor. Hmm...

From:

amielleon

Edited Date: 2011-08-14 03:27 am (UTC)

From:

hooves.livejournal.com

Well, to be fair, most of the programs that talk about the lives of serial killers and so-forth do talk about their childhood, and 90% of the time they had a terrible one.

However, then we have supervillians like Hitler who really made his own decisions all the way.

I don't mind it being included if it makes sense (Lucius), but I don't really like seeing it as some kind of a crutch-- kind of like when people default to Florina having been abused or raped because she stammers. When, y'know. It's not like people actually get stammers for much more minor reasons, amirite?? (The King's Speech gave me ideas to be sure.)

Also. That review. Just. What.

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Yes, but with serial killers in our world, there probably is not any influence from, uh, soul-warping magic artifacts. And there are certainly people from comfortable lives who grow up to do terrible things.

However, then we have supervillians like Hitler who really made his own decisions all the way.

Hitler's father was abusive. IIRC, early "explanations" of Hitler made much of this, finding it as evidence that he was pure evil from the get-go and his father recognized this and tried to beat it out of him. Fortunately, we have a better understanding of child abuse these days. Also fortunately, I've not yet seen anyone offer this up as a means of letting Hitler off the hook for his own acts.

kind of like when people default to Florina having been abused or raped because she stammers.

Yes. Exactly.

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amielleon

What Mark said. Also, I think there's really something to be said for making it into "some kind of crutch" as you said -- like, the origin for some present situation can be easily distilled into one clean traumatic event! Behavior stems from such a complex mess of background and I think that blaming Florina's stutter on rape comes from essentially the same place as blaming murders on video games.

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I'm pretty sure that if Florina had been raped, her sisters would be putting the hurt on anyone who even looked wrong at her. Not to mention that they probably wouldn't have allowed her to try out for the Pegasus Knights. It's more likely that she's just incredibly, incredibly shy.

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amielleon

Well... if her sisters knew.

I don't think it's too unlikely that Florina has been exploited, but I dislike how it's generally portrayed.

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Considering they aren't off-put by her behavior, I think it safer to assume that if something like that happened, that they would know.

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amielleon

While people around a victim of trauma often note in hindsight that they underwent a personality change, they do not always recognise it at the time as an indicator of trauma. Victims of sexual abuses are especially infamous for holding their silence for various reasons.

I think a stronger argument would be that Florina's shyness doesn't seem to have any disordered characteristics to it. She particularly held up well during the bandit incident in which you meet her.

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crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com

The only abuse I see in Grado is Vigarde´s neglect of Lyon. I can't see him molesting Lyon (isn't it all about Lyon suffering because he is left alone anyway), but, hm, other people look for other interpretations. We have only little in regard to Vigarde´s characterization so there is much room to play with.

That is, no woobification, plz. Lyon made his choices and has to take responsibility for them.

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For Vigarde we have the words of his three generals.

"His majesty has changed."

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I take it that you interpret it the way I did-- that Vigarde, while perhaps not a warm and fuzzy character, was a moral and upstanding man during his actual life?

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