It's Slash! It's a Mary Sue! It's... Neither? Both?

[mark_asphodel]

 That genderbent-fic discussion on the Dread Anon Meme reminds me of the all-time WTF genderbent story of my acquaintance.  No, not the one where Ranma finds out she was "really" female all along and embraces her petite red-haired persona for good.  That was tame by comparison.

Back in the day of single-fandom archives, there was a notable page of stories about The Monkees.  Now, Monkees 'fic always straddled the line between TV show 'fic and Real Person Fic, and things got creepy at times (especially when one of Mike Nesmith's relatives popped up on the newsgroup to point out the creep factor).  I am a fan and defender of RPF, but the blending of show canon and real life got weird... a lot.  Having Peter Tork not be stupid?  Great.  Having Mike Nesmith's real-life illegitimate kid pop up as a supervillain?  Just plain strange, man.  Having the Monkees as superheroes who prevent 9/11?  NO.  

Anyway, there were a couple of authors who specialized in hurt/comfort.  Actually, more like maim/comfort.  But the stories were long, and had decent enough writing and plots, and featured lots of Mike and Peter and not so much of Davy and Micky, so I was a happy fangirl.  But, you see, there was something seriously weird about this writing team.  They didn't like slash.  Oh, no.  Slash was wrong.  But damned if they didn't like to turn the Monkees into females and hook them up with other Monkees.  Now, there are numerous instances of cross-dressing in the Monkees TV show.  I think each guy dons drag at least once during the course of the series, and Davy and Micky are pretty damned cute as girls.  Peter, not so much.  So a cross-dressing plot or subplot in a Monkees 'fic is totally within the bounds of canon.

Having Mike Nesmith turned permanently into a female by aliens, and have him be OK enough with this turn of events that he then shacks up with a (permanently blinded) Peter Tork... and then "Kayla" and Peter have a kid together... I'm not sure what I'd call that.  In denial, maybe?  Using a Mary Sue as an avatar of repressed slashy instincts?  I don't know.  But it was deeply weird, not to mention a recurring motif in these girls' stories.  The "Kayla"/Peter epic was so popular someone plagiarized the damned thing (with permission, IIRC), added a prologue/framing sequence, and posted their "remake" with much fanfare.

I don't have a point other than saying that story, its writers, and its fans were all flippin' weird.  And I think some of them HAD to be in denial about some of their own impulses.  Maybe just the impulse to bang Peter Tork and have his Sue!babies, but in denial all the same.

PS: Now I want to finish that genderbent AU for FE11, but it's just too strange to be funny and too weird to be drama.

Comments

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Hm, I would call that a sexswap rather than genderbend. I dunno, for me a genderbend is only complete when the gender and sex are the same, which wouldn't exclude magical transformatoin on principle but it's just not done often. (Theoretically, you could even have a genderbend without a sexswap...)

Hm, but it sounds like more of self-insertion fics what you describe. Hach, but genderbending is so much fun in its own right...

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I dunno, for me a genderbend is only complete when the gender and sex are the same

But how's that different, in a technical sense, from the story I described? A male character acquired female bits, learned to tolerate his new body, shacked up with his former best friend and they had a kid. There was almost no trace left of his initial personality as an intense and often prickly young man-- he was a sweet and affectionate young woman. I mean, in this particular case the story was very weird and off-putting, but it definitely went beyond the realms of a mere bodyswap. In terms of execution, that was part of the problem-- Kayla wasn't Mike anymore, she was (I think) a self-insert with a superficial resemblance to Mike, which was not especially interesting.

Same thing with the Ranma story, which was literally about Ranma becoming 1/1 and wholly female. Less disturbing than the above, but still... unsettling.

I like genderbend in theory (still TRYING with that FE11 story) but in practice, these are the #1 and #2 long-form examples I can think of offhand, and both of them left me feeling very, very strange once I read them, and I think they illustrate the most common fanfiction hazards of trying to genderbend . What they said about the writers' attitudes toward sex and gender was pretty disturbing, as well.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I think she means it's different because usually in "genderbent" stories, the characters "were always" the opposite gender, rather than having been actually turned into the opposite gender.

For example, a fic where Kent is a girl and Lyn is a guy? And have always been that way? Genderbend.

A fic where Eliwood gets turned into a girl, but was previously a man? Sexswap.

But IMO "Genderbend" could be used to describe either situation.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Though in that Ranma story, Ranma was a girl who was changed into a guy as a child who then became half-girl who became all-girl. :D

But IMO "Genderbend" could be used to describe either situation.

I don't see fandom at large (any one that I've been in, anyway) making a distinction, so I think it's kind of an academic point... rather like my personal "Ike/Soren isn't slash" stance. Technically, it's correct, but good luck keeping it from getting confused as all hell in practice.

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Well, the summary sounds like in the beginning he was a man who identified as a man, so he was male in sex and gender. Then his body was turned into female while his gender didn't change (in the beginning). Now, if it where good writing, he either couldn't accept the difference or he learned over the time that he can still be himself while having a female body (or embrace his new feminity). But such a complete 180? Bad writing. That doesn't necessarily has to do with genderbend an sich but with bad writing.

That is strange for Ranma, because even when he is in his female form it is pretty obvious that he is still male at heart, i.e. female sex and male gender.

(Bad conceptions about gender obviously often end like this. Bad writing.)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

That doesn't necessarily has to do with genderbend an sich but with bad writing.

Well, yes, of course it's bad writing. Most genderbending (or sex swap, or body swap) fiction is because most writers haven't even a passing acquaintance with gender psych.

That is strange for Ranma, because even when he is in his female form it is pretty obvious that he is still male at heart, i.e. female sex and male gender.

Well, I see that, and you see that, but it was the contention of the author that Ranma's thin-skinned machismo came from being forced into a male role when he was by nature female, and that turning him back "fixed" all that dysfunction. You can say it's crap, but they were certainly trying!

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Hmhm, genderbending could be so awesome if more writer would know what they are doing. (Btw, is it "genderbent" or "genderbend"?)

Ah, I just read your summary of the Ranma story in another comment. I assumed it was canonRanma and not an AU. My bad. (Sounds like an interesting AU)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I'd say genderbent is the adjective, and genderbend a verb.

Sounds like an interesting AU

Good setup, facile resolution. IMO. But I did read all of it, so it definitely held my attention.

[raphiael]

Most genderbending (or sex swap, or body swap) fiction is because most writers haven't even a passing acquaintance with gender psych.

This is the problem I have with most genderbend stuff. Either the stereotypes of the genders are overblown and the character is warped beyond recognition, or the change is totally ignored. The former makes me feel like, as you said, it just feels like an OC masquerading as an opposite-gender doppleganger of a canon character, and the latter, unless it's just in a silly floof story, makes me feel like, "well, what's the point?"

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

I like me some RPF occasionally. I used to be in bandom and I write seiyuu slash, but yeah, there is a difference between "stage persona" and "real life identity" and some RPF can get really...creepy. Especially when original characters shacking up with the 'canonicals' is involved. Especially if they're fourteen and the canonical is like, forty.

I like genderbending and genderswapping. Unfortunately, most of the time, it tends to not be done well, especially if suddenly, male character wakes up as a female and they are strangely okay with this. I see this ALL THE TIME in Weiss Kreuz fandom, and it's usually Yohji who gets turned into a girl for some reason. (I think it's the fact that the authors think that once the character is genderswapped, they have to start acting like whatever gender they turned into. So if Yohji is suddenly a girl, he has to wear dresses now. Because girls don't wear pants. Or something. That's what makes it bad.)

I'm thinking maybe they thought it'd be too creepy to have an original character, so they took a canonical, genderbent them, and then thought that that character having the other guy's kids was less creepy. People do this.

Now I want to finish that genderbent AU for FE11, but it's just too strange to be funny and too weird to be drama.
Oooh, tell me more.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

So if Yohji is suddenly a girl, he has to wear dresses now. Because girls don't wear pants. Or something. That's what makes it bad

I've read those same ones, or damn close to it.

Oooh, tell me more.

Oh, it's based off a prompt on the old kink meme. Cornelius had two daughters and decided to raise the younger one as a son because hey, he needed a male heir and life wasn't cooperating. So Marth is a girl raised as a boy. And then things get difficult.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

After a while I think they're all the same anyway.

. . .

I would so read that fic. Maybe that's where Brawl!Marth came from. *shot*

[amielleon]

I think you would be amused by this piece -- which, given many of these trends you noted here, may very well be subversive.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Heheh. Yeah, I figured that was intended as a dig at the genre... especially given the title.