On loving again

[mark_asphodel]

 So, crimsonmorgan 's discussion of whether or not remarriages are actually verboten in Magvel (and elsewhere) made me want to share this examination of love and remarriage after the death of one's beloved spouse.  Interesting stuff, especially the little girl's reaction to the idea of her father's first love.

Anyway, the combination of Magvel meta, my little Eliwood/Fiora thingy, and a new Eliwood/Ninian piece by the author who made the case for Crazywood with "A Second Betrayal" last year just got my wheels spinning.  Not that I'm getting anywhere, but the wheels are spinning.

FE fandom doesn't "do" second marriages a lot-- xirysa  has pondered that at length re: Oswin/Serra and how Bors fits into the picture.  The easiest answer to the math problem is that Bors's mother... wasn't Serra... but you just don't see people going there.  

It's not like it never happens in canon.  Sheema is explicitly the daughter of Jiol's "second wife," and even if NOBODY is giving Jiol props for being a family man, and we can easily assume that both his wives met a nasty and premature end, we have that bit of evidence to go on that yeah, remarriage is possible in at least one FE world.  Then again, Jiol clearly doesn't give a damn about conventional morality, so maybe wife #2 is another symptom of his evilness.

[I assume Hardin to be the half-brother of King Aurelis, given the age difference, but I think canon is silent on that one]

I think I remember Cellica's mother being a wife of Sofia's King Rima IV... but not his only wife.  At least, the script indicates that Rima had more than one child, but Cellica's mother died shortly after Cellica was born, so there seem to have been other women involved... somehow.  Rima, OTOH, was also a sleazebag.  Not looking good for youthful widowers who don't want to be alone, here...

Jugdral... as ever, is complicated.  Let's not even touch Diadora's situation, but if you want to run with the Beowulf/Lachesis/Finn triangle theory, then arguably she "marries" more than one guy.  So, theoretically, could Nyna of Archanea, depending on what you think happens when she gets ahold of Camus/Zeke.  Your guess is as good as mine on that one.  But there is not a blanket ban on second marriages, at least in the early games.  The situations we get in canon just tend to be reaaaaally awkward.

Also, isn't Marquess Thria the half-brother of Hector and Uther?  How's that work?

By the time we get to FE8, though, the details we're provided are all so shoddy that we don't know the names of the presumably dead wives of Fado and Vigarde, the living wife of Hayden, Ismaire's dead husband, or either of L'Arachel's parents.  But the overall impression we're given of adults across FE is that a LOT of people die fairly young, leaving widows and orphans, and almost no-one remarries.  And that comes across very clearly in 'fic.

[Is Juno canonically the half-sister of Tate and Thany, or is that Hitomi's headcanon?  Anyway, that can be filed under "Ilia is weird," I guess.]

But, as crimsonmorgan  says, "I want more fics where people can find a second or third or even fourth love."  WORD.  I'm not saying Hector should be making out with Serra atop the grave of Florina/Lyn/Farina, but I totally endorse the idea of the characters who get deprived of their first love ending happily with a second... or third... companion.  Why not?  We've already established that FE worlds have kind of... lax... attitudes towards marriage unless you're the last holy heir of whatever kingdom.  Why turn around and assume that everyone with a missing spouse is forbidden to look at anyone ever again?  Sad, that.

I mean, yeah, some characters are more likely to grieve the rest of their lives than others.  But, let's take Eliwood.  OK, Ninian goes back through the Gate, and there goes First Love.  Then he marries, say, Fiora and she dies of Missing Wife Syndrome, and there goes Second Love.  Dude's still thirtyish.  If we also assume he doesn't die from FE Father Syndrome, he has a couple of decades ahead of him.  And this is where my headcanon ships Eliwood/Rebecca like mad.  My point being, Eliwood is a character who could, plausibly, bounce back a second or third time.  The man's a confirmed romantic, and if his romantic bent is more toward the Eros end of the spectrum than the Thanatos end... well! 

And then on the other hand, you have Marth, and if you want to say that he could never, ever love anyone but Caeda ever, the FE3 script backs you up here.  I still say Gotoh's a dickweed for that one, but we assume Gotoh to be the Voice of God, then yeah, SOME people get one shot at love and that's it.  But since fate seems to have a particular interest in screwing up Marth's life and telling him to be grateful for the special attention, we can just as easily ignore him as an outlier.

Then again, my headcanon shoves Marth out of the picture and then gives Caeda a golden-years romance with Ogma.  Nobody said life was fair, least at all in fanfiction.

Anyway, canon is all over the damned place on this issue, so just consider this my own particular plea to allow lonely older people some love and companionship.  :D

Comments

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Second Love is definitely an interesting concept. I like happy stories of love working out and lasting, but I don't buy the idea of "first love = true love and the character must never love anyone else or they're disloyal". Why shouldn't a widow/widower be given a chance to find love again?

I think, though it depends on the character. Eliwood obviously doesn't remarry after his wife dies in FE6, but if he loves Ninian and she goes home with Nils, what's stopping him from falling in love with Fiora or Lyn or, I dunno, Rebecca. Same with his mother. She loved her husband dearly, but it's not impossible that she might find love with, say, Marcus or Isadora after Elbert died. Isadora? Even if you don't pair her with Harken or he dies or you don't get him, her single ending says she gets married so it's entirely possible she found someone else.

Levin in Seisen? His first real love was Mahnya (I believe they were actually engaged in the Oosawa manga), but that doesn't stop him from loving Fury (or if you're going with game canon Sylvia or Tiltyu) with all his heart (second gen complications aside).

Lachesis? She and Eltosian swore their undying eternal love to each other, but when Elto bit it, she was able to eventually find happiness with Finn. And in FE5, it's entirely possible that Beowulf died after she had Delmud, so she found happiness with Finn and they had Nanna.

Sigurd, on the other hand...I don't see him going for another woman so easily. No matter how fast he fell for Deirdre, it was clear that the woman owned his whole heart and soul. He seems like the type who would rather hang onto his good memories of her if she HAD died instead of just being kidnapped. Likewise, I don't see Rena moving on so easily if Julian dies.

So yeah. Second Love is definitely possible and definitely worth exploring, but to me it depends on whether or not a character would go for it.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Good point with Isadora. I think Trevor X used that line as mechanism to pair her with Eliwood, which tickled me greatly.

Almost mentioned Mahnya, but I wasn't sure what was game-canon and what was manga-canon.

Agreed on Sigurd, though. SecondLove!Sigurd does not compute. As you said, Diadora owned him completely.

but to me it depends on whether or not a character would go for it.

Yep. But many characters can be plausibly written in either direction, just like you can have a plausible nobody-but-Ninian!Eliwood and a plausible Lyn-or-Fiora!Eliwood and still have the man be content with his lot.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Ooh, Eliwood/Isadora. I may have thought of that before...if I didn't, it's definitely an interesting idea.

Mahnya/Levin is more obvious in the manga, but I believe it's game-canon to, to a smaller extent. (The only mention of it is made in a Levin/Fury convo that's actually hard to get, since those two have such high love values and they still need to be single in order to unlock it)

Yep. I think Sigurd might be a rare case in which there were no other loves before his true love...not sure whether he was just chaste or any girls he liked were schoolboy crushes, but when he fell, it was for reals.

Yep. But many characters can be plausibly written in either direction, just like you can have a plausible nobody-but-Ninian!Eliwood and a plausible Lyn-or-Fiora!Eliwood and still have the man be content with his lot.

Definitely. Thanks to "A Garden of Our Own" I kinda like the idea of Eirika having a golden years romance with Saleh after the death of Innes/Seth/Forde.

[raphiael]

Very sweet article.

I think. . . a lot of it stems more from the attitudes of fandom itself than from canon elements. There seems to be a very strong element of "true love" in FE fandom as a whole, which I think factors into the prevailing attitude that, for example, Eliwood could never ever be really happy with Fiora, since he loved Ninian and couldn't have her. It's one element that (similar to the knight and princess thing) remains really fairy-tale-esque, almost, even in the nitty-gritty "darkfic" out there.

As I said on crimsonmorgan's entry, I think Isadora is a good example of marriage (though she was only engaged) being treated as not necessarily a one-time "soulmate" deal, at least not for most people. I would really imagine that, as you said, the characters who wouldn't ever love again would be the exceptions, rather than the rule. It isn't something that really comes up at all for me - I only have one character I work with regularly who I see as a widower - but that's my feeling on it.

As for the difference in class norms, Magvel is the only case I can think of where I don't see royals remarrying, if only because you have not a single "bro-wife", if you will, being mentioned (and in both Fado and Vigarde's cases, at least, I'd see their existence as being an important detail), and Ismaire remaining unmarried after her husband's death. Just about everywhere else, I can see it being allowable.

long comment got long @^@

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

not sure whether he was just chaste or any girls he liked were schoolboy crushes

Or he had Cuan and Elto to occupy his time...

/ducks

I kinda like the idea of Eirika having a golden years romance with Saleh after the death of Innes/Seth/Forde.

That too, even if I prefer her to just start off with Saleh. But switching gears from Innes to Saleh would be real interesting.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

THAT TOO. XD Yeah, Sigurd/Cuan/Elto are like...the original BroKings. Well, not quite since Sigurd's actually a Lord, but still. And stuff probably did happen between them in their academy years.

*nod* I've been fully convinced of Saleh/Eirika, lol. But yeah, going from dealing with Innes's ego and misguided protection to a peaceful life with Saleh would probably take some getting used to.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Agreed on the fairy-tale thing... I'm sure that is the major factor.

and in both Fado and Vigarde's cases, at least, I'd see their existence as being an important detail), and Ismaire remaining unmarried after her husband's death

They could've had second wives who also died, though. Or the mothers of the kids WERE the second wives!

As for Ismaire... I can see that as being partly political. Her authority wasn't questioned as long as she had a dead husband and a runaway son, but bring a new strongman into the mix to potentially found a new dynasty, unrelated to the bloodline of the Dead Sand King... Ismaire may have preferred to simply avoid that trap.

Seriously, a husband could've married her, seized authority, done away with her, and founded a new line with some hot young chickie. No thanks!

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

I really, really love the ideas of remarriage and such in FE, all canonical evidence aside. There's no law anywhere that says that Character A must stay single after Character D's death, but... Fandom doesn't seem to think that way, mostly because they don't want to break their OTPs or whatever pairing their writing. I also noticed that there's this sense of "romanticism" of a character living out the rest of their days alone, but that... Never really sat well with me at all.

Kind of sad, really, because aside from the First Wife/Oswin/Serra thing, I've also got headcanons for Lowen/Rebecca/Wil (+ Raven, and now you make me want to add Eliwood to that mix) and Elbert/Eleanora/Marcus.

There's also canon with Brendan Reed and Sonia, but that's a decidedly different thing all together.

Love doesn't necessarily need to play into things, either. For the noblemen (and even--if not especially--the noblewomen as well) there's that issue of succession/heirs/making ties with other lands that makes marriage a good idea, and then simple human nature. FE's worlds are certainly not pure and idealistic, and you can't deny that, even if it's not a loving relationship/marriage, lust--or a natural desire of some sort--will definitely play into things.

[raphiael]

In terms of just storytelling, I can see why it might seem more "romantic" to have a character love only once and then never again. But when I think of it, it's really just quite sad and often unrealistic. Like, in Eliwood's case? He deserves some kind of happiness. There ought to be some kind of shiny prize for surviving Fire Emblem fatherhood.

Ismaire's reasoning definitely makes sense, yeah, and I could absolutely, now that I think of it, buy Vigarde remarrying and losing a second wife. He does seem to be older than the other kings, and yet Lyon's around the twins' age. Curious indeed. (Though admittedly, the "oldness" I'm seeing could just be his illness/zombieness.)

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

That article was really sweet :3

Thank you for this meta. Seriously. I am all for second/third/fifth/tenth marriages because the reality is, some people are going to be able to find love after their first wife dies. It's not illegal, it's actually the norm. Granted this also depends on the character, but unless it's really unlikely, you can even have a character portrayed as both ways--never marrying again and having a second or even a third wife depending on how old they are. And even then.

To be honest, the only person I can't see remarrying is Marth. He loves Caeda. There will never be anyone else. I think Marth just has that One Shot At Love and once it's gone, that's the end. (Marth would not like the prospect of not marrying Caeda, but in the end he has to do it anyway.)

Then again, my headcanon shoves Marth out of the picture and then gives Caeda a golden-years romance with Ogma.
Yessssss.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

But when I think of it, it's really just quite sad and often unrealistic

Well, there's a strain of romanticism that embraces life, and a strain that's pretty morbid. YMMV. I prefer rationalism, myself, but Fire Emblem doesn't have a lot of it. And when it does go all pragmatic/utilitarian, the results can be pretty alarming.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

but that... Never really sat well with me at all.

Yeah. At base, something in me rebels against presenting that kind of life-denying brand of romanticism as a positive.

lust--or a natural desire of some sort--will definitely play into things.

YES.

Though, again, some characters seem waaaaay less prone to this than others. I keep mentioning Eliwood, but dangit, to me he seems so refreshingly... normal... I think there's a REAL good argument to be made that he is a man familiar with natural desires. Some other characters seem to have a rather more conflicted relationship with their own desires.

And then you have someone like Lute, ha hah.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

It's not illegal, it's actually the norm.

Well, yeah. Hell, Paul McCartney's getting married again, and if he and Linda weren't one of the immortal "light of my life" couples of popular culture, I don't know WHAT would be.

To be honest, the only person I can't see remarrying is Marth.

I agree with Sara Jaye that having Sigurd go for anyone else is completely out of the question. But for different reasons. With Sigurd, the relationship with Diadora took hold of him so completely that no, there is no "second act" after something like that. Whereas with Marth, it seems like the fact that Caeda got through to him at all is remarkable, and the chances of anyone else ever doing so are... really slim.

Also don't see Alm and Cellica turning to anyone else, really. They're two halves of one whole, IMO. Whereas, uh, Celice? Yeah, not feeling that same kind of vibe from him. Or Roy, really. Hell, I don't know what sort of shape Leaf would be in if he ever lost Nanna, but I'm not going to just say he couldn't love someone else again. He could take up with Janne ha hah

[hooves.livejournal.com]

A nice bit o' writing here, so of course I have to add my two copper (read: 20,000 gold).

I'm all for re-marrying in FEland. I loved Xirysa's idea re: Serra, Oswin, Bors and Wendy. I'm actually surprised nobody thought of it before. (Myself included, since I do like Serra/Oswin as a pairing.)

I think the lack of re-marriages in FE can be blamed on several factors. The first is, it's fantasy, the second is, it's fanfiction, and the third is, people love their angst. (I guess.) Also, people write 'fic to get away from Real Life.

To be perfectly honest, I'm in the latter category (write to escape real life), except to make myself a total hypocrite, I like realism in my fanfiction, anyway. I guess I just prefer a bit of a realistic Happily Ever After. Then again, I also don't like writing story after story about sad, lonely, widowed characters, either. (And too often, those stories are written as if the characters don't think about ANYTHING but their dead spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend. Even when 20 years has passed.

Now, admittedly, you might still think of them on a regular basis. You might still miss them and think about THAT on a regular basis. But a lot of the times I see those stories written as, WAHHH WOE IS ME x over nine-thousand, and it doesn't change after 20 years. Every day they're living in SUCH UTTER MISERY blah blah et cetera. Sorry, that's not how it is. I'd prefer the "20 years later still mourning" stories be more about, maybe it's just a really bad for for the character-- maybe they dreamed about their spouse. Or maybe it's the anniversary of their death.

But stories that act like, 20 years after their spouse's death they're still grieving every moment of every day? Yeahno. THAT is unrealistic and not in a happy-fantasy way, either.

The idea of Eliwood/Ninian --> Eliwood/Fiora --> Eliwood/Rebecca is actually pretty interesting to me. I could absolutely see it.

But IMO a lot of things factor into marrying again. Lyn or her spouse could die to a bandit attack preeeetttyyy much at any time, living out there on the plains. Lyn herself has seen it happen before, just one day BAM! family and friends all dead. If one or the other lives...it'd be hard to accept their death, and I'd imagine remarriage would be difficult if there weren't a lot of options around.

Whereas, say, if Fiora died a slower death due to illness of some kind, Eliwood would have a chance to tell her he loved her before she died, not to mention come to terms with the fact that she WOULD die-- and soon. In that type of situation, remarriage could be easier.

Obviously time to grieve would be necessary, but years of HOW DID THIS HAPPEN, WHY DIDN'T I PREVENT THIS, WHAT COULD I HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY wouldn't be plaguing Eliwood's mind. (Versus how it probably would be if an assassin snuck in and pwnd her while they slept or something.)

Though I believe this more on real life experiences than anything. (Grandfather was one day hit by a train while he was on a motorcycle and died. That grandmother never remarried. My grandmother on the other side had colon cancer and God knows what else. The grandfather on that side was remarried within a year. (Dating before 6mo were up, even.) Other things were involved, of course, but my grandfather got over his wife's death almost before she died. Like, he accepted that she was going to die. And in her last couple of months, she was barely even there at all. By the time she did die, I think he was nearly done grieving.)

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Anyway, stuff like kids factor in. (If there are any.) Where they live (is it a place with a lot of people or isolated?), their personalities (super loyal long/hard lover, or loyal but short/fast lover?), how quickly they warm up to people on a personal level, if at all (quickly, slowly, very slowly, hardly confides in anyone ever for any reason?), blah blah blah.

There are other things, too.

I think something else missing in FE is divorce or just plain leaving your spouse/lover. That never seems to happen, especially if they've actually slept together.

Imagine Florina marrying Hector but, she can't make herself consummate the marriage because she just can't get over her nervousness. So she just up and leaves. Or Lyn marries Eliwood and just hits a breaking point where she can't take it anymore and she up and goes back to Sacae. Or Rebecca and Wil just fight all the time and end up breaking up. There are rarely breakups at all, let alone divorces!

Whereas IRL there are breakups and divorces all the time. People remarry a lot, but people are also in a huge hurry to marry and we meet like thousands upon thousands of people in our lifetime. (Versus a real medieval world where the average Joe (Wil, Rebecca, Lowen, Kent, Sain, Heath, etc) met something like 50 new people in their entire LIFE. They knew the people from their village, the people they worked with, but rarely did they meet or interact with people outside of that. The next town was probably days and days worth the walking, so people didn't just up and leave-- they couldn't leave their farms/homes/etc for that long.

Of course, in FE there are pegasi and most of our main heroes traveled across Elibe. That wouldn't be normal for a lot of people to have traveled so much when not at actual war. (And even then, average villagers DIDN'T GET THAT AS AN OPTION. So it's like. Meh. Lots of interesting points made here, though, I think.

blah blah totally lost my train of thought

[hooves.livejournal.com]

PFff my headcanon DOES have Eliwood as...a very normal man. So yep, in my brain, he's quite familiar with natural desires. This helps play into his very fast attachment to Ninian. (Though admittedly Eliwood's campaign could take well over a year to complete, I still think he becomes attached to her rather early into it.)

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

I keep mentioning Eliwood, but dangit, to me he seems so refreshingly... normal... I think there's a REAL good argument to be made that he is a man familiar with natural desires.

Maybe not during FE7's timeline, or even for a few years after, but after the loss of his wife, I don't think it's a odd to say that he sought "companionship", you know? I mean, he's decidedly not a manwhore, but at the same time it's just a natural part of human nature to feel things like that--and to act on those instincts and desires.

...And now I really, really love the idea of Eliwood/Rebecca. XD

(Then again, twisted relationships like that? I'm a sucker for them. XDDD)

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Paul and Linda are pretty much the immortal "light of my life" couple.

I never really got far in FE4 or played FE2, so they didn't come to mind at all, just going by what I know, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense. There are just some characters who just wouldn't be able to take it up with someone else, whether out of guilt or their heart is just so consumed by them that they just...can't.

But with someone like Roy... I'm sure he could find someone else. But characters like Marth? Yeah, I just don't see it.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I think something else missing in FE is divorce or just plain leaving your spouse/lover.

True-- outside of Abel/Est, you really don't see it. And that's part of what makes Est abandoning Abel so shocking.

There are rarely breakups at all, let alone divorces!

And so many of these people get married as KIDS. Kids who've been through a lot, but without the immediate life-or-death cause to bind them, they might realize they don't like each other that much after all.

so people didn't just up and leave-- they couldn't leave their farms/homes/etc for that long.

Though FE canon is filled with characters who do up and leave their families-- Jeorge, Wil and Dan, Levin, Joshua, even Lena-- and ones who don't seem to "come" from anywhere, like all the Navarre-types.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

But stories that act like, 20 years after their spouse's death they're still grieving every moment of every day? Yeahno

To be fair, there are a few prominent real-life examples (Queen Victoria). But I doubt that factors into fanfic overly much. And Victoria took things to extremes that shoot way past "romantic" into "bizarre."

The idea of Eliwood/Ninian --> Eliwood/Fiora --> Eliwood/Rebecca is actually pretty interesting to me.

:D

Though I believe this more on real life experiences than anything.

Yeah, but there's a fair amount of truth to it.

Comes in like a boss XD

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Important thing first; I'm amused that "verboten" has made it into English. It confused me at first, but after looking it up I'm just giggling.

Personally I think it would be an interesting turnabout if remarrying is not possible in Magvel. Though it were pretty... impractical for kings/nobles if they had no sons and their wife dies. But, to counteract this, it were no problem to take concubines and makes their kids heirs. Now that would be an interesting break. (And you can still have angst if remarrying is prohibited and you've fallen in love with someone.) Hm, and it makes me want to incorporate it somewhere...

Apart from that, I agree that it depends on the character; for example, I can see Fado and Vigarde having concubines to satisfy their needs, but not having any real feelings for them.

Re: Comes in like a boss XD

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Hah. Yes, "verboten" has been an English loan word all my life, for certain.

But, to counteract this, it were no problem to take concubines and makes their kids heirs

Which is, I think, quite possibly what actually happened in the cases of King Jiol and maybe King Rima as outlined above. It's hard to say, but there's something very strange about each situation.

So, yes, that's ripe for exploration in 'fic, and while it's understandable that people shy away from writing it, lack of such exploration is a little sad.

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

*ponders*

I have most likely said this before, but I always figured that Wendy was the daughter of Sain and Serra, while Bors was the son of Serra and Oswin after the untimely death of Sain. (I do not see him leaving her.) Granted, Wendy refers to Bors as her "big" brother, but I like to split a hair there and note that he is physically bigger (quite a lot), if not older.

As for elsewhere, you are correct that this has not been explored to a great extent. Hmm. Eliwood remarrying after losing Ninian, perhaps? (Fiora? Totally makes sense.)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

The issue with Bors is that his given age is a hair too old to be Serra's kid if she and Oswin married after the war-- hence the first-wife hypothesis. As much as I like the idea of different *fathers* for Wendy and Bors, I'm too much of a canonist to reverse their birth order. ;P

[r-amythest.livejournal.com]

I think this is tied into another problem.

Why isn't there more fic about old people?

After all, this all presumes that the characters are well past their prime, and that in itself is rare in fic.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

After all, this all presumes that the characters are well past their prime, and that in itself is rare in fic.

Mm, only "past their prime" by some fairly absurd standards, given the number of characters across the games who appear to lose their partners when still in their twenties or very early thirties! Or earlier, if you're dealing with the "Eliwood could only ever love Ninian" end of things.

Though the games themselves do tend to put across a mentality of "Over Thirty = One Foot In The Grave," non-humans excepted. So, yes, I do think the issues are connected, but fandom's apparent dislike of dealing with mature adults is only part of the problem. The whole ball of wax does appear to stem from a fairy-tale conception of things where everyone must be young and beautiful, find One True Love, and love them forever and ever.

[shining-valor.livejournal.com]

Good point with Isadora. I think Trevor X used that line as mechanism to pair her with Eliwood, which tickled me greatly.

Yes, yes I did. Thanks for noticing. :D

I just liked exploring the concept that Eliwood and Isadora could find a second love after their first heartbreaks. In my tale, Ninian has another lover and Harken is just... not acceptable to Isadora anymore. So it's not like they died... but then again, who says that death is the only end of a romance?

[r-amythest.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was going to say -- the games tend to paint the over-thirty characters as aging men who are surprisingly fit enough to fight.

I believe in and could buy the armchair hypothesis that fandom in general has a One True Love fairy-tale like conception, but I point out the age problem because as it is, both the fairytale problem and the age problem pertain to second-love stories, and we don't have enough of a dataset for stories about old people, stories about non-fairytale relationships, and both to say which one's the crux of the problem and which one's along for the ride. (As I like to point out to anyone crying about how there isn't a good multichapter about X and it must be because fandom can't appreciate Y, how many good multichapters do we have to begin with?)

Considering the popularity of "Ike and Pelleas die, Soren and Micaiah turn to each other" etc that you get in Telliusverse, where you have funny aging phenoma, I'm strongly inclined to say that it's the wrinkly people kissing that's the turn-off.

Incidentally, one-sided Titania -> Greil is canonical in Tellius (Ike/Titania A) although I'm not sure how much that counts, since the party who's doing the hormone dive is the one who isn't the widow.

Also incidentally, six months ago I wrote a story in which Soren takes too long to get over Ike and regrets what he's lost in the time moping, but my characterization of Stefan was alarmingly bad, it didn't quite work as a story, and it was pretty demoralizing tossing out a 12.5k word first draft.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

the games tend to paint the over-thirty characters as aging men who are surprisingly fit enough to fight.

This is persistent enough through the games that it plays into some of my headcanon re: character longevity. Even if, as a thirtysomething, I find it a wee bit insulting.

As I like to point out to anyone crying about how there isn't a good multichapter about X and it must be because fandom can't appreciate Y, how many good multichapters do we have to begin with?

That is a good point. Though some of my feelings on "fandom says" stem as much from discussions I've read as on the available 'fic data.

I'm strongly inclined to say that it's the wrinkly people kissing that's the turn-off.

I think that's fair to say.

since the party who's doing the hormone dive is the one who isn't the widow.

Which fits rather neatly into a tradition of female warriors in love with their bosses, even if Titania/Greil is far more resonant than Selena/Vigarde, Brenya/Zephiel, Catria/Marth, etc. So I'm not sure how much that counts for second love, either. Now, if he'd reciprocated...

and it was pretty demoralizing tossing out a 12.5k word first draft.

Ow! I'm sure.

[r-amythest.livejournal.com]

I think Titania/Greil is a little more significant in that Greil's wife was an appreciable character to some extent. We have very little reference to Vigarde's wife, and the other two are single, whereas Elena is one of the first faces you see in the game and one of the most important off-screen characters in Path of Radiance. Incidentally... I remember quite a few people feeling troubled over the idea of writing Titania/Greil because of Elena.

I think the matter of branded pairings is a curious set of data, especially concerning Soren, who is particularly well-suited in this regard: he has a near-canonical "first love" and he's bound to outlast him (whether Ike dies of old age or not) and still be youthful afterward. I haven't kept numbers, but an appreciable portion of requited Soren/Stefan stories let Soren/Ike happen first, and then drag Soren over to Grann after that's done with. (The ones where Stefan tries to drag Soren to Grann before that's happened tend to be ultimately Ike/Soren in nature.) In my subjective observation, it seems like Stefan/Soren shippers don't mind the second love thing because it's on some level preferable to the manipulation of canon or contrivance of circumstance to make it a first love.

On the other hand, I can think of exactly zero Ike/Soren stories that address Soren's prepubescent body, or have them making out when Ike is old and Soren is not, or point out the fact that Stefan is a few centuries along and of beast blood and will probably be wrinkly by the time Ike's kicked it.

So.

Given the Tellius data, I really think it's because people like beautiful young adult bodies.

[r-amythest.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I lied, old!Ike/Soren exists.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4243562/1/Epiphora (which bothers me a little because the beginning/premise is uncannily similar to the first draft of something I'm still trying to write that I showed her back in '07)

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

That damnable artbook is my nemesis, I swear.

[xirysa.livejournal.com]

Why isn't there more fic about old people?

This is one of the reasons I love writing old!Sain so much in RoJD.