FE12: Supports and Junk Plus the Latest Weapon Update

[mark_asphodel]

 So thrilled by shimizu_hitomi 's play-by-play posting of FE12.  Especially the support convo stuff.

I remain ambivalent about GBA-style supports.  I resent having to park characters next to one another for a million jillion turns to unlock some chatter that is often fairly pointless.  Now, if I am particularly attached to characters and pairings (Lute/Kyle, frex) then there is a stupid little buzz of pleasure I have out of making sure they get "married" and work awesomely together, but the getting there is frustrating as hell, especially if my desired pairing is a "rarepair" that takes a BILLION jillion turns.  And my desired pairings are, alas, often weird.


So hopefully I will find the FE12 system more to my liking.  Certainly I am highly excited about the content of some of these conversations-- Hitomi has already indicated that Melissa's will be a hoot, and I am of course very interested in how the Altean Cav/Macedonian Peg Knight stuff shakes out.  Certainly some of the additions/omissions compared with the FE11 supports are... interesting, like Frey being dropped from Catria's f-list and Catria being dropped from Cain's.  And the fact that Abel has automatic support with Marth and can A-level with Marth at the same rate he A-levels with Est, which shocks me.  I just got the vague impression from FE11 that Abel was the least attached to Marth on a personal level out of the core crew of Alteans (see: death quotes for the gang), and I figured that might have some influence on Abel's later actions.  Seems like FE12 may paint a very different picture of things and I am very keen to see it.

Also, it appears the Cain/Abel friendship is pretty imbalanced, with Abel being more important to Cain than Cain is to Abel.  Makes sense given Abel is married and all and pretty explicitly has other priorities (Est, duh), but the set-up here is also... interesting. 


Of course, the posted support lists could easily be flawed.  Lord knows the FE11 ones were initially very wrong.

Also, have noticed something from the flurry of screen caps posted by Hitomi and others.  


Contrary to the belief of many SSB-writers, grown-up!Marth does NOT appear to be especially tall.  Noticeably taller than femme!MyUnit (and Melissa and Norne), but just about eye-to-eye with Minerva and perhaps a hair beneath her.  Even if we posit Minerva as being six feet tall, Marth is still eye-to-eye with Linde and definitely beneath Cain, Talys Axe Bro (Cord, I think), and arguably Etzel.  Seriously, he seems to be about average height.  Like, maybe equivalent to 5'10" here in modern America?   


So, here's the skinny on staves and items:


Wrys has his own staff.  Aum is one-use only, NOT five-use, but all princesses including Sheema can use it if they have the staff-ranking.  Hammerne has a lousy three uses, as does the Again staff.  The Starsphere shards offer much simpler bonuses than they did in FE3 and don't trigger negative growths in any department, none of the Spheres allows for infinite weapons use, the Geosphere does not let you unleash earthquakes (damn), and there are a bunch of new potions with different effects.  Fire Emblem and Shield O' Seals both allow Marth to steal stuff.  I just love that.

Comments

[penandpaper71.livejournal.com]

I won't be able to abuse the Hammerne staff this time. D: Okay, I'll need to be more careful with my weapons in this game. At least you can buy dragonstones in this game, so I won't necessarily have to be repairing Tiki's stone to use her.

Abel's supports with Marth and Est are among the few on the list that actually makes sense to me in light of his FE3 actions. Abel may agree to fight for the enemy to save Est, but if confronted by Marth, he'll join you, even if Est is still captured, which means her death. He mostly comes off to me as very conflicted as far as his priorities go in the game, so the split makes some sense to me.

The Cain/Abel stuff confuses me some. I always assumed that their relationship was a more equal one, although perhaps there really was just that a big a shift after Shadow Dragon, but that bothers me some in light of his ending from Shadow Dragon, which indicates that he remains close with his friends.

I'm not sure how to react to a bunch of the supports now. I'm looking forward to reading the conversations though to see if they help clear anything up.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Contrary to the belief of many SSB-writers, grown-up!Marth does NOT appear to be especially tall. Noticeably taller than femme!MyUnit (and Melissa and Norne), but just about eye-to-eye with Minerva and perhaps a hair beneath her. Even if we posit Minerva as being six feet tall, Marth is still eye-to-eye with Linde and definitely beneath Cain, Talys Axe Bro (Cord, I think), and arguably Etzel. Seriously, he seems to be about average height. Like, maybe equivalent to 5'10" here in modern America?

I always thought Marth was around 5'8" myself in SSBM. I never thought he was ZOMG HOW'S THE WEATHER LIKE UP THAR tall myself, nor did I understand where people got their estimations of 6'0" and above for his height.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I always thought Marth was around 5'8" myself in SSBM.

Makes sense to me. And, from the screencaps I've seen, that's a convincing enough estimate for his "canon" height. I have a problem imagining pegasus knights being super-tall Amazons (they're airborne-- weight matters), and he's not exactly towering over Caeda. Somewhere in-between 5'8" and 5'10" works for me. 5'11", maybe. Six feet and up... nope. Not buying it. I don't want to make him out to be a delicate little femmeboi either (dear lord no) but he's just not that physically imposing.

nor did I understand where people got their estimations of 6'0" and above for his height.

Anyone looks tall standing next to Kirby and Pikachu.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

I have a problem imagining pegasus knights being super-tall Amazons (they're airborne-- weight matters), and he's not exactly towering over Caeda.

I just pictured an amazon on a flying horse. That mental image made my day XD But it makes sense. Having a huge, hulking person, even if they're skinny, they still have to have muscles not only from wielding a weapon, but you have to be able to stay on a horse--flying or otherwise--while holding that weapon. Taking muscle mass into effect, if you were tall, there'd be more, and more is not really that good. The poor pegasus, they'd have to be on steroids themselves.

Somewhere in-between 5'8" and 5'10" works for me. 5'11", maybe.

That's what I figured. 5'7" maybe. Anything shorter than that looks wrong to me because that would make him the same height as say Link or Roy, and he's taller than them. 5'11" is stretching it, but it's not one hundred percent impossible, either.

I thought 5'8" because Samus is a little over six feet and he's shorter than her by quite a bit, so I estimated a bit. It's not a bad guess, in any case, better than what most of SSB fandom says.

I don't want to make him out to be a delicate little femmeboi either (dear lord no)

Ugh, people who make him shorter just so he can be 'uke' according to Height Rule just... Eurgh. You can be taller than your partner and still be on the bottom, dammit!

Anyone looks tall standing next to Kirby and Pikachu.

Everyone must be hulking brutes then in comparison, haha.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Anything shorter than that looks wrong to me because that would make him the same height as say Link or Roy, and he's taller than them.

Exactly. Though, amusingly enough, Roy is 15-16ish and can probably expect another growth spurt or two, whereas Marth at 19-20 is likely his full adult height and thus Roy might well end up the taller of the pair in the end.

You can be taller than your partner and still be on the bottom, dammit!

Don't make me have flashbacks to 4X3 fandom in Gundam Wing....

I admit to a secret guilty enjoyment of Ike/Marth, and the Height Rule thing and all its fannish connotations get frustrating really, really, fast.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine Roy being too much taller than Marth, certainly not a six foot something amazon man or anything, but maybe an inch or two taller. It wouldn't bother me because Height Rule can jump out a window and die in a ditch for all I care.

Oh Gundam Wing... That fandom was royally weird with their pairings and how they worked. I was a real nut in the fandom back in the day because I didn't like Heero/Duo at all, I much preferred Heero/Zechs and Heero/Relena, which gets you crucified by like, everyone. (And all the Treize fangirls hated the fact that I liked Treize/Zechs, and all the Treize/Zechs people didn't like the fact that I also shipped Zechs/Noin. You're always wrong in Wing fandom.)

Whatever happened to switching, anyway? All of my people switch and it's funner that way! (Firefox spellcheck says 'funner' is a word. Haha.)

I admit to a secret guilty enjoyment of Ike/Marth, and the Height Rule thing and all its fannish connotations get frustrating really, really, fast.

Yes. I too guilty ship Ike/Marth (I like Marth/Roy 89584954 times more and that is my OTP etc. etc.) and everyone always has Marth on the bottom because of their 0.089854754 in difference in height. Sometimes I wonder why I still bother with this fandom. I'm busy trying to write an epic fic where they're normal people and whether or not this characterisation is good or not, and the fangirls are worrying over who's taller for their ship.

I really freakin' hate height rule.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

You're always wrong in Wing fandom

That is the essence of it, yes. The 4X3 vs 3X4 wars were what drove me right outta the fandom. But I LIKED Heero/Relena, liked Treize/Une, liked Zechs/Noin (it's canon, dammit), and just couldn't understand the hate and the character assassination and the fact that the "Duo" that fangirls wet themselves over bore no relation whatsoever to the guy onscreen. I mean, watched every single ep uncut, and there still wasn't any scene where he's done up in leather, brandishing a whip, and welcoming people to an S&M club. NO.

All of my people switch and it's funner that way!

Suggest that regarding Trowa and Quatre and you'd have to flee. :(

everyone always has Marth on the bottom because of their 0.089854754 in difference in height

Well, and all his perceived "feminine" qualities. Which... whatever.

Still not convinced by Marth/Roy (I read too much bad fanfic back in the day and the pairing doesn't click for me), but I must admit that I find it mentally far easier to pair him up with male characters from his own 'verse than to hook him up with any of the "other women" running after him in his games. It doesn't make him Virgin Girly Uke, though. Nope.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Also, I think Heero talked to Duo maybe only a handful of times total in both the TV series and the OAVs/movie, and it was only because he had to, not because he wanted small talk. Heero is not one for small talk. I found nothing to suggest he and Duo are 'meant for each other'. I think it's more of 'they're hot together!' than any actual chemistry.

Hell, suggest anything that goes against fandom thinking and you're crucified in that fandom. Perhaps it's a little better now since the majority of the fangirls have moved on--I haven't gotten into any discussions with the fandom as it is today--but from what I've seen, the fandom is still crap. Still 'sixth Gundam pilots' fic (there were only five in Operation Meteor, fangirls. The only other person who has a gundam is Zechs and that's because he built himself one and...I forget how he gets Epyon, he might've built that one too, or gotten it from Treize or someone; it's been a while), still Sues with Heero or Duo or latest hot guy, still some Relena bashing...

On the topic of Brawl... I'm not going to lie--I thought Marth looked like a girl in Brawl. He was hot, but too girly for my tastes. They made up for it in FE11 and certainly in FE12. I guess because of his feminine appearance, he must be the woman of the relationship or something. (Never mind the fact that fangirls just don't understand that if you have someone act like they're just a girl with a dick, it's not slash. Same thing with those 'genderbend' fics. They want to pair say Ike and Marth, but they don't want any of that 'icky slash' in their fic.)

Your reason for not liking Marth/Roy is why I don't like Marth/Link or Roy/Link, or Marth/Samus and Roy/Peach (which I never quite understood--Marth and Samus are so incompatible it's not even funny, and Peach has Mario).

It doesn't make him Virgin Girly Uke, though.

Word.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I found nothing to suggest he and Duo are 'meant for each other'. I think it's more of 'they're hot together!' than any actual chemistry.

Well, that and more of that cliche mentality that takes any sort of banter/hostility/remotely charged interaction and converts it to S-E-X. Personally? I thought Heero had better chemistry with Trowa.

I ducked in on the fandom last year and it all looked exactly the same.

which I never quite understood--Marth and Samus are so incompatible it's not even funny, and Peach has Mario

Samus is hot. Marth is hot. I don't buy the characterization but I'm not gonna complain. Unless it's sappy. Then, NO. Roy/Peach was obviously just a throwaway to keep Roy from standing there with his hands in his pockets. You usually see that in Link/Zelda, Marth/Samus or Marth/Zelda, Ike/Samus stories where the "other hot guys" are already paired off.

I guess part of my issue with Roy is that he looks SO young I don't find him appealing.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Personally? I thought Heero had better chemistry with Trowa.

Heero/Trowa is one of the pairings I support, actually. Heero made Trowa SMILE after Heero nearly got blown up because no one told him that standing on Wing while pressing the self-destruct trigger wasn't a good idea. NOT EVEN QUATRE REALLY MADE TROWA SMILE.

Also they both like rarely talk. Duo can barely sit still. Heero would just find Duo a nuisance and tell him to shut up and maybe give him a death threat not like that really worked anyway.

I ducked in on the fandom last year and it all looked exactly the same.

Huh. I might have to peek inside. I don't value my sanity too much anyway. I wonder if they still write uke!Heero... If only the fangirls knew that Heero's seiyuu doesn't understand the ukeification of his characters unless they were meant to be ukes in the first place.

Samus is hot. Marth is hot. I don't buy the characterization but I'm not gonna complain.

I read maybe one good Marth/Samus fic, and it was one sided on Samus's part. Marth was too busy getting all broken Engrish with Zelda. (Which was an interesting characterisation of Marth, because he doesn't speak English since he's not from an English speaking country, but the author assumed that Marth spoke Japanese and...it was basically a case of 'the voice actor speaks Japanese, therefore so must the character'.)

Unless it's sappy.

The only reason I stopped reading the above mentioned fic was because Samus was beginning to act like a stereotypical school girl. Then she turned her sights to Captain Falcon and her characterisation went back to normal. Plus she befriended Mewtwo.

NO. Roy/Peach was obviously just a throwaway to keep Roy from standing there with his hands in his pockets.

Ugh, I hate the thinking where EVERYONE has to be paired up because God forbid someone be single!

I guess part of my issue with Roy is that he looks SO young I don't find him appealing.

I'd rather have Marth with Roy than say Game and Watch. Or Ganondorf, who is your typical abusive assholic boyfriend and Marth is your kawaii uke desu, forgetting he has a sword and can kill people with it. (Seriously, the way people characterise Marth in their fics makes me wonder sometimes how Marth managed to win two wars without dying.)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I read maybe one good Marth/Samus fic, and it was one sided on Samus's part. Marth was too busy getting all broken Engrish with Zelda.

I know exactly the one you're talking about and I loved that 'fic right up until it became clear that the author was hewing to the "superficial snot" conception of Marth. So I was rather soured on it even though I loved the overall plot and really liked the Samus/Falcon/Mewtwo stuff. It was like, "Argh, writer-- you put too much work into this to go so damnably off-base!"

Or Ganondorf, who is your typical abusive assholic boyfriend and Marth is your kawaii uke desu, forgetting he has a sword and can kill people with it.

Well, even when he's not being girly-uke (and the Ganondorf and Solid Snake pairings are just plain weird), you have this fandom conception of Marth as some neatfreak prissy boy. Hello, he goes dungeon-diving and kills dragons. It's part of his job. I think he's used to a little mess on his clothes... a lot of mess, really. I bet a full-grown Earth Dragon would leave one hell of a mess.

He's just almost never written right. Ever. There was one 'fic in the last year, written by a guy who'd played Shadow Dragon, who had Marth in-character. I hadn't seen that in years.

Seriously, the way people characterise Marth in their fics makes me wonder sometimes how Marth managed to win two wars without dying

Granted, there are parts of FE3, not to mention the anime, where I wonder how he managed to win a single battle without dying.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

I loved that 'fic right up until it became clear that the author was hewing to the "superficial snot" conception of Marth. So I was rather soured on it even though I loved the overall plot and really liked the Samus/Falcon/Mewtwo stuff. It was like, "Argh, writer-- you put too much work into this to go so damnably off-base!"

Exactly. Marth isn't shallow in the least and it was clear the author was going that route. It saddened me because the fic was really well written and thought out.

you have this fandom conception of Marth as some neatfreak prissy boy

I'm not even sure where that characterisation even comes from. I can imagine Marth liking order and what not, but that doesn't exactly mean he's a neatfreak who freaks out when he gets one little wrinkle in his cape. He fights in wars, not only is he going to get really dirty, but there's gonna be rips and dried blood stains and all sorts of icky stuff.

Granted, there are parts of FE3, not to mention the anime, where I wonder how he managed to win a single battle without dying.

The entire time I watched the anime I wondered how the hell Marth didn't die coming out of his mother's uterus, let alone in battle.