mark_asphodel (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
mark_asphodel) wrote2012-02-12 11:42 am
mark_asphodel) wrote2012-02-12 11:42 am
Entry tags:
- fe4,
- fe5,
- fire emblem,
- meta
Reconciling Seisen and Thracia
And I thought Archanea had continuity problems.
So, I want to write something about, say, Nanna. Which I do. Like, say, Nanna's relationship with her mother Lachesis. Well, we hit a couple of walls pretty quick. When we compare the FE4 script, the FE5 script, the Illustrated Works timeline, and the various designers' notes, things get muddy.
1) Where was Nanna born?
Seisen answer: Chapter seven claims Nanna was born shortly before Lachesis fled to Lenster. Sounds like she was born in Isaac, where all the little 'uns were hiding. Maybe.
Thracia answer: IIRC, it's not stated, but the implication is Lenster.
Supplemental answer: Designers' notes and the "Lenster's Fall" story make it clear she was born in Lenster, shortly before the castle fell.
Ilustrated Works timeline agrees.
2) So were she and Delmud ever together as children?
Seisen answer: Implied yes, per their conversation in Chapter 7.
Thracia answer: No, and Delmud didn't even know about her until Levin told him.
Supplemental answers: No.
3) And when did Lachesis disappear?
Seisen says Nanna was three, which means Nanna likely has no memory of her mother.
Thracia indicates that Lachesis was present a much longer time span-- she disappeared when the "family" was hiding in Tahra, about six years before the game events. Nanna and Leaf would both know and remember her well.
Designers' notes say Nanna was eight when Lachesis disappeared.
Illustrated Works timeline says Lachesis left Nanna somewhere in between 769-771. Nanna would be no older than ten.
4) And how does Nanna feel about this?
Seisen Nanna is still pretty conflicted about it. She seems to have hoped that Lachesis was with Delmud in Isaac the entire time ("If you're my brother, then where is [mother] now?"). And her conversation with Finn ("If you loved her so much, how could you have let her go all by herself") implies that the entire topic is a major no-no in that household.
Thracia Nanna resolves things upon meeting Delmud. She says she was angry at him before, but after meeting him, she understands her mother's decision.
5) So what happened to Lachesis anyway?
Seisen: Lost in the desert, apparently. The kids are Not Happy when they puzzle this out.
Thracia: Alive somewhere per Levin, and Delmud knows this when he and Nanna meet. She is possibly turned to stone. Leaf swears to go looking for her so he can get Lache's blessing to marry Nanna, and it's implied that Finn goes looking for her after the war, with unknown results.
Designers' notes say she was in a prison camp at Silvail with a bunch of kids and Delmud eventually finds her.
6) And who's Nanna's father, anyway?
Seisen answer: Anyone you shack Lachesis up with. Could be Dew if you prefer that option.
Thracia answer: IIRC, everything stated in the script points to Finn, but he could've simply adopted her, and if holy blood doesn't come into things Thracia makes it pretty clear that adopted family is family and no "yes, but." Mareeta is Evayle's daughter, end of argument. That Finn acknowledges Nanna as his daughter does not actually imply a biological relationship. Indirect game-mechanic evidence for this-- he has his trademark super-lance all through Thracia, which he does not have in Seisen Gen 2 if you pair him with anyone.
"Lenster's Fall" answer: Sure as hell isn't Finn, and the story was written by a member of the Thracia staff.
Kaga's comments: Implied Beowulf; Lache was pregnant already when she went to Lenster.
Illustrated Works timeline is not helpful and just says "Lachesis came to Lenster in '61 and gave birth to Nanna in the following year." So, was she preggers or not when she showed up?
7) So who's Delmud's father?
Seisen answer: Whatever dude you paired Lachesis with.
Thracia answer: Implied Beowulf. He can use the Beo Sword.
Designers' notes/Kaga's comment: Beowulf.
8) OK. If canon is slanted toward Beowulf, what does the Beo/Lachesis conversation in Seisen have to say about all that?
The infamous Chapter Five talk:
L: Beowulf...
B: Lachesis, if anything were to happen to me, I want you to go to Lenster. Finn is there with Cuan's children. Give him a hand, okay?
L: How could you say that? When we go, we'll go together!
B: Lachesis, I've got a confession to make.
L: Hm?
B: I've known your true feelings all along.
L: What...!
B: Take good care of yourself. It was mighty nice while it lasted.
L: Wait! Beowulf!
[I really fail to see how this makes Beowulf into an irredeemable dick.]
Lache's Chapter Five conversation with Noish also has Noish telling her to go to Lenster, but the conversation mostly revolves around her nephew Aless (and we'll get to that in a second). But the Beowulf conversation can be interpreted the following ways:
1) Beowulf is making false accusations about Lachesis. She admits to nothing, after all.
2) Beowulf just knows Lachesis isn't into him. Nothing specific implied there.
3) He's talking about the whole Eltoshan thing. Rather important episode in Lache's character arc, after all.
4) The direct request to go play house with Finn, coupled with the "true feelings" comment, indicates that Finn and Lachesis were either screwing around or that at the very least Lachesis was thinking about it.
So, why did Lachesis go to Lenster?
Seisen answer (Beowulf): Went to go play house with Finn, per the conversation above.
Seisen answer (Noish): Looking for Aless, or something...
Seisen answer, Chapter Eight: Nanna believes that Lachesis was looking for her nephew Aless, and the trail took her to Lenster. Nanna's been carrying around a letter from Lachesis to Aless the entire time.
(Of course, if you pair Lachesis and Finn to start with, it's obvious why she goes to Lenster. But, again, the preponderance of canon evidence points to Beowulf as her lover/husband before hell really breaks loose.)
Kaga's comments: She went to Lenster to protect Aless, got the cold shoulder from Mrs. Eltoshan, and went to seek Finn out thereafter.
The "preponderance of evidence" allows one to piece together a pretty involved story, but it requires outright ignoring things in one game script or the other. Either Nanna was born before the Bahara disaster (761) or she wasn't. Lachesis either left when Nanna was a toddler or when she was a child of 8-10. On balance, I'd say the Thracia version of events is more detailed and compelling one, but is Thracia canon even, well, canon? I mean, Leaf's rebellion failed per FE4.
So, is it "wrong" to go with "Seisen canon" (pair up Lachesis with whoever the hell you want) in "Thracia 'fic"? Um... maybe? It kind of feels wrong. I mean, if I wanted to cut through all the BS and just pair Finn/Lachesis from the get-go, there's a lot to ignore. The Beo sword. Delmud's clear resemblance to Beowulf. The fact that Finn and Delmud never have one single conversation together in either of the games. I realize some fans (not to mention the Oosawa manga) just want to cut Beowulf out of the hot Lachesis action entirely, but it seems like Kaga's own headcanon had Beo there.
'Sides, I kinda like Beowulf. Here you have this rugged older dude who's been around (he's got that other son who pops up in Thracia, after all), and he scores this pretty little princess as his bride. She's probably a "fun" partner. And she's not into him, but he's more or less OK with it until things get real sticky and then he tells her to scram and to get on with her life. What's bad about that, exactly?
It's not like things were all happy-lovey with Finn, either, given that he and Lachesis had a never-resolved disagreement over the "find Delmud" thing. Lachesis went out alone over Finn's objections, and years later he refuses to talk about it with their(?) daughter and Selphina's reading him the riot act over it ("Why did you leave Lady Lachesis? You knew how sad she was!"). Note the sentence construction there. In Selphina's world, Lachesis didn't say good-bye and set out merrily across the desert. Finn left her. And presumably took the kids. Not sure how that works, given Finn stayed put in Tahra until Imperial troops showed up, so maybe the translation's jacked up there. But at the very least, I'm thinking there's a bit of a double standard here where Beowulf is concerned. He's "old and ugly" (whatever) so he's a bad guy and Finn is teh pretteh so he gets a pass on whatever the hell it was that he doesn't want to discuss circa 776.
So, I want to write something about, say, Nanna. Which I do. Like, say, Nanna's relationship with her mother Lachesis. Well, we hit a couple of walls pretty quick. When we compare the FE4 script, the FE5 script, the Illustrated Works timeline, and the various designers' notes, things get muddy.
1) Where was Nanna born?
Seisen answer: Chapter seven claims Nanna was born shortly before Lachesis fled to Lenster. Sounds like she was born in Isaac, where all the little 'uns were hiding. Maybe.
Thracia answer: IIRC, it's not stated, but the implication is Lenster.
Supplemental answer: Designers' notes and the "Lenster's Fall" story make it clear she was born in Lenster, shortly before the castle fell.
Ilustrated Works timeline agrees.
2) So were she and Delmud ever together as children?
Seisen answer: Implied yes, per their conversation in Chapter 7.
Thracia answer: No, and Delmud didn't even know about her until Levin told him.
Supplemental answers: No.
3) And when did Lachesis disappear?
Seisen says Nanna was three, which means Nanna likely has no memory of her mother.
Thracia indicates that Lachesis was present a much longer time span-- she disappeared when the "family" was hiding in Tahra, about six years before the game events. Nanna and Leaf would both know and remember her well.
Designers' notes say Nanna was eight when Lachesis disappeared.
Illustrated Works timeline says Lachesis left Nanna somewhere in between 769-771. Nanna would be no older than ten.
4) And how does Nanna feel about this?
Seisen Nanna is still pretty conflicted about it. She seems to have hoped that Lachesis was with Delmud in Isaac the entire time ("If you're my brother, then where is [mother] now?"). And her conversation with Finn ("If you loved her so much, how could you have let her go all by herself") implies that the entire topic is a major no-no in that household.
Thracia Nanna resolves things upon meeting Delmud. She says she was angry at him before, but after meeting him, she understands her mother's decision.
5) So what happened to Lachesis anyway?
Seisen: Lost in the desert, apparently. The kids are Not Happy when they puzzle this out.
Thracia: Alive somewhere per Levin, and Delmud knows this when he and Nanna meet. She is possibly turned to stone. Leaf swears to go looking for her so he can get Lache's blessing to marry Nanna, and it's implied that Finn goes looking for her after the war, with unknown results.
Designers' notes say she was in a prison camp at Silvail with a bunch of kids and Delmud eventually finds her.
6) And who's Nanna's father, anyway?
Seisen answer: Anyone you shack Lachesis up with. Could be Dew if you prefer that option.
Thracia answer: IIRC, everything stated in the script points to Finn, but he could've simply adopted her, and if holy blood doesn't come into things Thracia makes it pretty clear that adopted family is family and no "yes, but." Mareeta is Evayle's daughter, end of argument. That Finn acknowledges Nanna as his daughter does not actually imply a biological relationship. Indirect game-mechanic evidence for this-- he has his trademark super-lance all through Thracia, which he does not have in Seisen Gen 2 if you pair him with anyone.
"Lenster's Fall" answer: Sure as hell isn't Finn, and the story was written by a member of the Thracia staff.
Kaga's comments: Implied Beowulf; Lache was pregnant already when she went to Lenster.
Illustrated Works timeline is not helpful and just says "Lachesis came to Lenster in '61 and gave birth to Nanna in the following year." So, was she preggers or not when she showed up?
7) So who's Delmud's father?
Seisen answer: Whatever dude you paired Lachesis with.
Thracia answer: Implied Beowulf. He can use the Beo Sword.
Designers' notes/Kaga's comment: Beowulf.
8) OK. If canon is slanted toward Beowulf, what does the Beo/Lachesis conversation in Seisen have to say about all that?
The infamous Chapter Five talk:
L: Beowulf...
B: Lachesis, if anything were to happen to me, I want you to go to Lenster. Finn is there with Cuan's children. Give him a hand, okay?
L: How could you say that? When we go, we'll go together!
B: Lachesis, I've got a confession to make.
L: Hm?
B: I've known your true feelings all along.
L: What...!
B: Take good care of yourself. It was mighty nice while it lasted.
L: Wait! Beowulf!
[I really fail to see how this makes Beowulf into an irredeemable dick.]
Lache's Chapter Five conversation with Noish also has Noish telling her to go to Lenster, but the conversation mostly revolves around her nephew Aless (and we'll get to that in a second). But the Beowulf conversation can be interpreted the following ways:
1) Beowulf is making false accusations about Lachesis. She admits to nothing, after all.
2) Beowulf just knows Lachesis isn't into him. Nothing specific implied there.
3) He's talking about the whole Eltoshan thing. Rather important episode in Lache's character arc, after all.
4) The direct request to go play house with Finn, coupled with the "true feelings" comment, indicates that Finn and Lachesis were either screwing around or that at the very least Lachesis was thinking about it.
So, why did Lachesis go to Lenster?
Seisen answer (Beowulf): Went to go play house with Finn, per the conversation above.
Seisen answer (Noish): Looking for Aless, or something...
Seisen answer, Chapter Eight: Nanna believes that Lachesis was looking for her nephew Aless, and the trail took her to Lenster. Nanna's been carrying around a letter from Lachesis to Aless the entire time.
(Of course, if you pair Lachesis and Finn to start with, it's obvious why she goes to Lenster. But, again, the preponderance of canon evidence points to Beowulf as her lover/husband before hell really breaks loose.)
Kaga's comments: She went to Lenster to protect Aless, got the cold shoulder from Mrs. Eltoshan, and went to seek Finn out thereafter.
The "preponderance of evidence" allows one to piece together a pretty involved story, but it requires outright ignoring things in one game script or the other. Either Nanna was born before the Bahara disaster (761) or she wasn't. Lachesis either left when Nanna was a toddler or when she was a child of 8-10. On balance, I'd say the Thracia version of events is more detailed and compelling one, but is Thracia canon even, well, canon? I mean, Leaf's rebellion failed per FE4.
So, is it "wrong" to go with "Seisen canon" (pair up Lachesis with whoever the hell you want) in "Thracia 'fic"? Um... maybe? It kind of feels wrong. I mean, if I wanted to cut through all the BS and just pair Finn/Lachesis from the get-go, there's a lot to ignore. The Beo sword. Delmud's clear resemblance to Beowulf. The fact that Finn and Delmud never have one single conversation together in either of the games. I realize some fans (not to mention the Oosawa manga) just want to cut Beowulf out of the hot Lachesis action entirely, but it seems like Kaga's own headcanon had Beo there.
'Sides, I kinda like Beowulf. Here you have this rugged older dude who's been around (he's got that other son who pops up in Thracia, after all), and he scores this pretty little princess as his bride. She's probably a "fun" partner. And she's not into him, but he's more or less OK with it until things get real sticky and then he tells her to scram and to get on with her life. What's bad about that, exactly?
It's not like things were all happy-lovey with Finn, either, given that he and Lachesis had a never-resolved disagreement over the "find Delmud" thing. Lachesis went out alone over Finn's objections, and years later he refuses to talk about it with their(?) daughter and Selphina's reading him the riot act over it ("Why did you leave Lady Lachesis? You knew how sad she was!"). Note the sentence construction there. In Selphina's world, Lachesis didn't say good-bye and set out merrily across the desert. Finn left her. And presumably took the kids. Not sure how that works, given Finn stayed put in Tahra until Imperial troops showed up, so maybe the translation's jacked up there. But at the very least, I'm thinking there's a bit of a double standard here where Beowulf is concerned. He's "old and ugly" (whatever) so he's a bad guy and Finn is teh pretteh so he gets a pass on whatever the hell it was that he doesn't want to discuss circa 776.
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Incidentally, I think the Chapter Five Talk is more or less translated correctly, although I'm not totally sure about the "B: Lachesis, I've got a confession to make." line. I'm probably misreading it, but... it looks sort of like "I think you've wronged me". But I have like 10% confidence that I'm reading that right.
In any case I've always figured he was referring to Lache and Elto.
But yeah. Timeline mindfuck there. You get the feeling that they hadn't planned on expanding FE4 and ditched half the notes.
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Well, that does ratchet up the tension a little. Interesting.
In any case I've always figured he was referring to Lache and Elto.
I think what muddies that up, for me, is that Beo specifically mentions Finn by name. He could've just said "Go to Lenster," but specifically directing Lachesis to go raise kids with another guy... is weird. But the Elto explanation is extremely compelling otherwise. It's kind of hard to ignore!
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L: Beowulf...
B: Lachesis, if something happened to me, go to Lenster for me. In Lenster, Finn is there with Cuan's children. Help them in my stead.
L: Don't say things like that! When we go, we'll go together!
B: Lachesis, I think I've wronged you.
L: Eh? Why...?
B: I've known your feelings...
L: ! ...
B: Take care, Lachesis. Though it was short, it was fun.
L: Wait! Beowulf!!
Which leaves the question of, what stake does Beo have in Lenster and its royal family? He makes it very clear that he's asking a favor of her when he tells her to go to Lenster.
I'm with you on that crack explanation. ;D ;D
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Upon noticing that this conversation is NOT a mechanism to hook Lachesis up with Finn...
But is apparently a personal request that Lachesis aid the Cuan-spawn, as though Beo has a stake in their welfare...
Which makes no sense, given that this is Mr. Gimme-10K-Gold we're talking about here...
And Beowulf, his first mistress, and his illegitimate son all hail from Conote...
And that Lachesis has a perfectly good reason to go to Lenster, otherwise known as her nephew...
We have arrived at one conclusion.
Beowulf and Cuan were totally fuckbuddies.
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Totally nitpicky but I just realized, it's a little more accurate to render it as "Cuan's children are there with Finn".Mark, you left out one very important part.
Who tops?
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Seems clear enough that Ethlin wears the pants in the family re: Cuan.
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I do remember a different translation of the Beowulf conversation which although not quite as bad as the Sylvia one, did seem harsher (something along the lines of "I know your little secret"). The one in your post is more accurate iirc.
(Personally, I like that Lachesis is one of the few if only FE characters who canonically has multiple romantic relationships instead of an implied "one true love" -- heck, I so rarely see women being allowed more than one meaningful/positive partner without any party being demonized that this tickles me, period.)
Out of curiosity (and because I remember reading it differently), I just checked the confession line and I think the tone is actually more apologetic on Beo's end, along the lines of "I've been thinking I haven't been fair to you." Tricky to translate though -- it's a little slangy and indirect at the same time. The most literal I can get with this one is "I think I owe you an apology" but that's obviously a little weird in context! Or in other words "I think I've wronged you." (Pretty sure the ni wa is pointing to Lachesis rather than away.)
On that note I think it's pretty safe to say interpretation #2 is true at the very least... But whether or not he means anyone specific, well. I feel Elto and Finn are both equally likely. (Elto makes an awful lot of sense because Beowulf arguably uses his name to get into her good graces to begin with! But Finn is also a very good candidate for the reason you mentioned. Could be he means both and it's meant as an all-encompassing sort of apology for making her feel obligated to "commit" to him...)
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Even the official artwork circa Thracia is ambiguous! Blue eyes in the game, brown in the artbook. Oh, and of course her skill is something she has in Seisen even if Azel is her father!
I have always assumed Delmud is Beowulf's though -- it's the only satisfying solution to me.
Agreed. Too much about an alternate scenario makes no sense. And the way that Delmud and Finn never manage a conversation about anything-- be it a "thanks for keeping my sister safe" or a Sety-esque "And where the @#$% have you been all this time?" makes it seem like IS was deliberately trying to dodge the point.
I will say that the presence of Felgus, like the appearance of Cyas, potentially lends a nice symmetry to things. Beo has this kid with random Conote noblewoman, and he and Lache have Delmud together, and then she has Nanna with Finn. Lachesis gets the same, well, freedom to act as did her late/former husband.
Personally, I like that Lachesis is one of the few if only FE characters who canonically has multiple romantic relationships instead of an implied "one true love" -- heck, I so rarely see women being allowed more than one meaningful/positive partner without any party being demonized that this tickles me, period.
Exactly. And Felgus popping up, demonstrating that Beo had, well, a history of his own, can be argued as a means of defusing any "shame" of the part of Lachesis.
I think having Delmud be Beowulf's kid and Nanna be Finn's kid is the most appealing scenario, but the volume of canon/semi-canon evidence pointing to Beowulf being the, ah, sperm donor for both kiddies makes me leery of anyone saying that it's "Thracia canon."
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I return with the "Why did you leave Lady Lachesis?" line:
【セルフィナ】
それならなぜラケシス様を
ほうっておかれたのです？▼
あの方の悲しみを
わかっていらしたはずなのに･･･▼
To be exact, the verb here is "neglect" and the last part is actually you should've known how sad she was.
"Then why did you neglect Lady Lachesis? You should have understood her sorrow..."
With the specific shade of "should" being like, Selphina would have expected him to have done so, and less "this would be the morally correct thing to do."
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