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mark_asphodel) wrote2013-08-08 05:41 pm
mark_asphodel) wrote2013-08-08 05:41 pm
Some Musings on Women in FE
Just to get these thoughts down in one place...
I don't know about y'all but I found little things about the way female characters were handled to be a very off-putting thing in FE13. I didn't like a lot of the Big Things in FE13 either but small disparities really got under my skin. At this point, the high-water mark for the franchise treatment of female characters looks to be Tellius, but it's worth examining the baby steps-- both forward and backward-- it took to get to that level, or even to FE6's level of female empowerment.
FE1: Things actually got off to a pretty good start in FE1. You have a genuine heroine in Caeda, the princess who takes up arms and kicks ass when her country gets attacked and then recruits a good chunk of Marth's army in the bargain. You have a high-ranking, take-charge female paladin in Midia-- sure her rebellion fails but she was in there trying. You have princesses like Minerva and Nyna left ruling their respective nations at the end of the game. Elice is a victim and a passive object of rescue, but hey, Marth is at least as interested in saving his sister as in avenging his father-- heck, Marth's entire status as a younger brother of an elder sister rather than merely as the son of his father is interesting. Not bad, really. Also can't mention FE1 without mentioning the Pegasus Knight Sisters, whose influence in terms of character and story reaches many, many later games in the franchise.
FE2: Gaiden takes this solid base and expands upon it, providing a female co-lead in Celica, a character who deliberately gets involved in a campaign she could've sat out because she felt it the right thing to do. She doesn't get swept up in events-- she chooses to help influence events. More than that, though. Gaiden introduces something Archanea really doesn't have: female antagonists. Specifically, female antagonists that can't be saved via recruiting. Sure, there are damsels in distress and even Celica has to be rescued at one point, but overall Gaiden seems pretty good, especially when prominent female supporting members like Teeta and Palla are taken into account.
FE3: The second round of Archanea is a huge step back. Women are automatic allies or victims who need a man to redeem them. No true female antagonists-- even generic peg knights are male. Marth's key female allies all cede power to him at the end of the game. Mystery of the Emblem is the absolute pits in terms of female empowerment for this franchise IMO. I love the storyline but the way the female characters are treated just blows. Even Caeda's role gets reduced because some characters she recruited in FE1 got cut from the roster.
FE3 is also notable for what it lacks in that many distinctly female "archetypes" didn't exist yet-- the exotic long-haired sword beauty came along in FE4. The spunky village-girl archer arose in FE5. These are notable in part because FE11 retconned them into existence via characters like Athena and Norne.
FE4: Here, things get interesting. On the one hand, some people on the f-list have strongly objected to the, well, rape-happy tone the game takes in numerous places. On the other hand, I have to give FE4 props for introducing a world where female representation just IS. No male peg knights here-- Jugdral abounds with generic mages, troubadours, and peg knights who fight and die alongside the NPC men. Jugdral has memorable and annoying female mini-bosses (Deet'var, Pamela, the mage Sisters, the falcoknight Sisters) including a mini-boss who leads an all-female mercenary troop. Jugdral offers up a must-hate, must-kill, thoroughly malicious boss in Hilda-- who is explicitly working her of her own volition and not in opposition to the good guys because she's tricked, deluded, brainwashed, etc. And, of course, you have one of the most sympathetic elder-generation characters in the game in Queen Rahna, who is given a gloss of dignity even in death and defeat. So, overall, Jugdral is a massive step forward from FE3 in presenting a level playing field where women aren't automatically off-limits in battle because of their sex and unfit to rule because they lack "magic swords."
Of course there's a downside, and the downside is in your actual female playable cast. This ain't the land of gender equality-- not when younger brothers still count for more than elder sisters politically, not when brothers take active steps to keep their sisters from getting their hands dirty, and not when every single female member of the Gen1 cast is either dead or sidelined when Gen 2 rolls around. Given Lewyn, Finn, Oifaye, and Shanan all get Gen 2 screen time, it makes the off-screen presence of Aideen sitting back home in Isaach extra annoying.
FE5: Now here's where stuff gets really interesting and IMO relevant to later games. Thracia 776 keeps up the Jugdral tradition of putting young ladies in peril, but it also does some other stuff. We have expanded female representation in physical classes-- I mentioned Tanya the spunky archer, but we also have Machua the Hero and Selphina the bow knight (arguably a Midia expy but eh). We have some nuanced female characters in Olwen, Amalda, and Misha, who offer some moral complexity beyond what you get in the FE3 women-- and you might be obliged to kill them! On the downside, you have FE5's version of the Nyna archetype, mouthy little Princess Miranda, whom the script mostly treats with contempt and whose happy ending involves leaving her throne for a simple life as the wife of a man old enough to be her grandfather.
No, really.
[FE5, like FE3, presents a diverse array of noble, talented, powerful female characters and then concludes with an unequivocal message of UP THE PATRIARCHY!!! We like strong women... but not so strong they don't go back to the kitchen when we tell 'em to.]
And then there's Eyvel. FE5 basically rectifies FE4's lack of competent Gen2 adult female characters by placing Eyvel at the center of the action from the very first chapter. Here we have a woman who is in her mid-thirties(!), respected, an authority figure and leader, a renowed physical fighter, and also a loving and beloved mother. Eyvel kicks ass. And then a couple of chapters in she gets hit with the victim stick and sidelined for the majority of the game while the menfolk do the fighting-- turned into an Elice-like MacGuffin, on the mind of the protagonist but always out of sight until the penultimate chapter.
So what do we make of things when the script presents us with an OMG awesome female character and then makes the deliberate choice not to utilize her, to box her off, make her a literal object for 90% of the game? Do we say, "Welp, at least she was cool," and think that it's kind of neat to find such emphasis on a mother/child bond when it wasn't expected? Or do we feel irked because it wasn't enough? After all, what it would look like if IS had taken this scenario and swapped it, deep-sixing the male parent figure while the female parent figure stayed active? Well, IS actually did this IMO and it's called Path of Radiance, so there you go. You can look at it from the opposite angle, too-- killing off the protagonist's father is a trope in itself in Fire Emblem. Even Eliwood in FE6 shows up, promptly gets sidelined, and is spoken highly of throughout even though we don't see him DO anything. So IS repeatedly does this with and to male characters, and it's part of the show. It's expected. So... is it SUCH a terrible thing that this happens to Eyvel? Because, simply put-- what befalls Leif's "mother" isn't much different than what happens to the fathers of Roy, Ike, or Eliwood. Is this a case of a strong female character being shoved to the side (boo) or the case of a parental figure being shoved to the side so the kid is forced to grow up, and in this case the parent in question is-- for once-- the mom?
Then again, maybe it's both. That's what makes evaluating female characters and their roles so goshdarn difficult.
And then we have Linoan, who presents a different FE-specific issue. In Linoan we have what I once termed the Disappearing Female. She's the scion of a holy line, the beloved ruler of a besieged city, gracious and kind and pretty. She's also, in the end, completely irrelevant. Her bloodline don't matter 'cause she explictly never weds. Her city don't matter because all of FE5 is a retcon interpolation into FE4 and Tahra isn't even on the map in FE4. Everything we do with Linoan, every concern we have about her, amounts to nothing and the overall saga barrels along without her. See also: Lyndis.
Then again,Tellius took this and "fixed" it too, IMO. Take a good long look at Micaiah and just TRY to tell me Linoan wasn't an inspiration there. And then look at what Micaiah gets to do and the consequences that has. Her sekrit bloodline matters. She has a lasting impact on the map. Even if she's shown up by Saga Hero Ike, she unquestionably matters in a way that Linoan does not and that (IMO) Lyndis does not.
Female representation is tricky, and in some cases I suspect that female fans (including me) actually DO judge female media characters more harshly than their male counterparts. That doesn't mean a lot of female media characters aren't tokens, or cardboard, or just plain crap. I specifically didn't mention a couple of female leads, Julia and Deirdre, that I find to be horribly written, and later FE games have their share of unsatisfying heroines IMO (Ninian, lookin' at you) or female characters with potential that aren't treated well by the script (Eirika the Gullible). But at a certain level I think I want to just be able to sit back and appreciate Caeda, Celica, Evayle and Linoan (and Titania and Micaiah)[*] without tying myself into knots over whether they could've been even stronger or better or more active or more consequential.
'Cause it's not like their male counterparts don't have problems.
* F!Kris, Katarina, F!Robin, and Lucina come with so much baggage that I can't help but tie myself into knots, sorry.
I don't know about y'all but I found little things about the way female characters were handled to be a very off-putting thing in FE13. I didn't like a lot of the Big Things in FE13 either but small disparities really got under my skin. At this point, the high-water mark for the franchise treatment of female characters looks to be Tellius, but it's worth examining the baby steps-- both forward and backward-- it took to get to that level, or even to FE6's level of female empowerment.
FE1: Things actually got off to a pretty good start in FE1. You have a genuine heroine in Caeda, the princess who takes up arms and kicks ass when her country gets attacked and then recruits a good chunk of Marth's army in the bargain. You have a high-ranking, take-charge female paladin in Midia-- sure her rebellion fails but she was in there trying. You have princesses like Minerva and Nyna left ruling their respective nations at the end of the game. Elice is a victim and a passive object of rescue, but hey, Marth is at least as interested in saving his sister as in avenging his father-- heck, Marth's entire status as a younger brother of an elder sister rather than merely as the son of his father is interesting. Not bad, really. Also can't mention FE1 without mentioning the Pegasus Knight Sisters, whose influence in terms of character and story reaches many, many later games in the franchise.
FE2: Gaiden takes this solid base and expands upon it, providing a female co-lead in Celica, a character who deliberately gets involved in a campaign she could've sat out because she felt it the right thing to do. She doesn't get swept up in events-- she chooses to help influence events. More than that, though. Gaiden introduces something Archanea really doesn't have: female antagonists. Specifically, female antagonists that can't be saved via recruiting. Sure, there are damsels in distress and even Celica has to be rescued at one point, but overall Gaiden seems pretty good, especially when prominent female supporting members like Teeta and Palla are taken into account.
FE3: The second round of Archanea is a huge step back. Women are automatic allies or victims who need a man to redeem them. No true female antagonists-- even generic peg knights are male. Marth's key female allies all cede power to him at the end of the game. Mystery of the Emblem is the absolute pits in terms of female empowerment for this franchise IMO. I love the storyline but the way the female characters are treated just blows. Even Caeda's role gets reduced because some characters she recruited in FE1 got cut from the roster.
FE3 is also notable for what it lacks in that many distinctly female "archetypes" didn't exist yet-- the exotic long-haired sword beauty came along in FE4. The spunky village-girl archer arose in FE5. These are notable in part because FE11 retconned them into existence via characters like Athena and Norne.
FE4: Here, things get interesting. On the one hand, some people on the f-list have strongly objected to the, well, rape-happy tone the game takes in numerous places. On the other hand, I have to give FE4 props for introducing a world where female representation just IS. No male peg knights here-- Jugdral abounds with generic mages, troubadours, and peg knights who fight and die alongside the NPC men. Jugdral has memorable and annoying female mini-bosses (Deet'var, Pamela, the mage Sisters, the falcoknight Sisters) including a mini-boss who leads an all-female mercenary troop. Jugdral offers up a must-hate, must-kill, thoroughly malicious boss in Hilda-- who is explicitly working her of her own volition and not in opposition to the good guys because she's tricked, deluded, brainwashed, etc. And, of course, you have one of the most sympathetic elder-generation characters in the game in Queen Rahna, who is given a gloss of dignity even in death and defeat. So, overall, Jugdral is a massive step forward from FE3 in presenting a level playing field where women aren't automatically off-limits in battle because of their sex and unfit to rule because they lack "magic swords."
Of course there's a downside, and the downside is in your actual female playable cast. This ain't the land of gender equality-- not when younger brothers still count for more than elder sisters politically, not when brothers take active steps to keep their sisters from getting their hands dirty, and not when every single female member of the Gen1 cast is either dead or sidelined when Gen 2 rolls around. Given Lewyn, Finn, Oifaye, and Shanan all get Gen 2 screen time, it makes the off-screen presence of Aideen sitting back home in Isaach extra annoying.
FE5: Now here's where stuff gets really interesting and IMO relevant to later games. Thracia 776 keeps up the Jugdral tradition of putting young ladies in peril, but it also does some other stuff. We have expanded female representation in physical classes-- I mentioned Tanya the spunky archer, but we also have Machua the Hero and Selphina the bow knight (arguably a Midia expy but eh). We have some nuanced female characters in Olwen, Amalda, and Misha, who offer some moral complexity beyond what you get in the FE3 women-- and you might be obliged to kill them! On the downside, you have FE5's version of the Nyna archetype, mouthy little Princess Miranda, whom the script mostly treats with contempt and whose happy ending involves leaving her throne for a simple life as the wife of a man old enough to be her grandfather.
No, really.
[FE5, like FE3, presents a diverse array of noble, talented, powerful female characters and then concludes with an unequivocal message of UP THE PATRIARCHY!!! We like strong women... but not so strong they don't go back to the kitchen when we tell 'em to.]
And then there's Eyvel. FE5 basically rectifies FE4's lack of competent Gen2 adult female characters by placing Eyvel at the center of the action from the very first chapter. Here we have a woman who is in her mid-thirties(!), respected, an authority figure and leader, a renowed physical fighter, and also a loving and beloved mother. Eyvel kicks ass. And then a couple of chapters in she gets hit with the victim stick and sidelined for the majority of the game while the menfolk do the fighting-- turned into an Elice-like MacGuffin, on the mind of the protagonist but always out of sight until the penultimate chapter.
So what do we make of things when the script presents us with an OMG awesome female character and then makes the deliberate choice not to utilize her, to box her off, make her a literal object for 90% of the game? Do we say, "Welp, at least she was cool," and think that it's kind of neat to find such emphasis on a mother/child bond when it wasn't expected? Or do we feel irked because it wasn't enough? After all, what it would look like if IS had taken this scenario and swapped it, deep-sixing the male parent figure while the female parent figure stayed active? Well, IS actually did this IMO and it's called Path of Radiance, so there you go. You can look at it from the opposite angle, too-- killing off the protagonist's father is a trope in itself in Fire Emblem. Even Eliwood in FE6 shows up, promptly gets sidelined, and is spoken highly of throughout even though we don't see him DO anything. So IS repeatedly does this with and to male characters, and it's part of the show. It's expected. So... is it SUCH a terrible thing that this happens to Eyvel? Because, simply put-- what befalls Leif's "mother" isn't much different than what happens to the fathers of Roy, Ike, or Eliwood. Is this a case of a strong female character being shoved to the side (boo) or the case of a parental figure being shoved to the side so the kid is forced to grow up, and in this case the parent in question is-- for once-- the mom?
Then again, maybe it's both. That's what makes evaluating female characters and their roles so goshdarn difficult.
And then we have Linoan, who presents a different FE-specific issue. In Linoan we have what I once termed the Disappearing Female. She's the scion of a holy line, the beloved ruler of a besieged city, gracious and kind and pretty. She's also, in the end, completely irrelevant. Her bloodline don't matter 'cause she explictly never weds. Her city don't matter because all of FE5 is a retcon interpolation into FE4 and Tahra isn't even on the map in FE4. Everything we do with Linoan, every concern we have about her, amounts to nothing and the overall saga barrels along without her. See also: Lyndis.
Then again,Tellius took this and "fixed" it too, IMO. Take a good long look at Micaiah and just TRY to tell me Linoan wasn't an inspiration there. And then look at what Micaiah gets to do and the consequences that has. Her sekrit bloodline matters. She has a lasting impact on the map. Even if she's shown up by Saga Hero Ike, she unquestionably matters in a way that Linoan does not and that (IMO) Lyndis does not.
Female representation is tricky, and in some cases I suspect that female fans (including me) actually DO judge female media characters more harshly than their male counterparts. That doesn't mean a lot of female media characters aren't tokens, or cardboard, or just plain crap. I specifically didn't mention a couple of female leads, Julia and Deirdre, that I find to be horribly written, and later FE games have their share of unsatisfying heroines IMO (Ninian, lookin' at you) or female characters with potential that aren't treated well by the script (Eirika the Gullible). But at a certain level I think I want to just be able to sit back and appreciate Caeda, Celica, Evayle and Linoan (and Titania and Micaiah)[*] without tying myself into knots over whether they could've been even stronger or better or more active or more consequential.
'Cause it's not like their male counterparts don't have problems.
* F!Kris, Katarina, F!Robin, and Lucina come with so much baggage that I can't help but tie myself into knots, sorry.
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I think I judge female characters more harshly than males myself, but I think badly-written men get filed into the "blahhhh" pile while badly-written women fall into the "actually this is kind of offensive" pile. Does that make sense?
I think FE9/10 did best with female characters who were compelling and at least thought for themselves. Micaiah felt like she could be a real person. I mean, aside from her speshulness (and this is FE so who cares, everyone is speshul really), she makes hard decisions and deals with things and presents herself like, uhm, a person. Who deals with things they don't always want to deal with. Then you have Titania who is obviously capable and awesome, kind-of motherly to the young people (especially Ike and Mist), intelligent without being snooty--she's great. Well-rounded, I think. And then you've got Jill, whose own dad doesn't believe what he's told her, but she forms her OWN OPINIONS, is totally racist herself, REALIZES SHE'S AN ASSHOLE, and then TRIES TO CHANGE. With a man's help, yes, but I think it's important that she reaches these conclusions pretty much on her own via observation and not because Haar comes by and tells her to. (However, in 10, she does join Ike's team again because of Haar and for no other reason--well, because of what he says.) Oh and Astrid. We can say the whole Makalov thing is gross/"unhealthy" but she still makes her own choice there, which has to count for something. Mist is done pretty well, too. Even though she does sort of damsel it up a bit...she's pretty much a little kid at that point so it's not such a big deal. She's still portrayed as caring, kind, and hard-working. Also, she tries to make other people feel comfortable in the group (like Jill) so that's great, too.
I'm still upset that Ninian didn't get to play any badass roles in FE7, that Lyndis was side-lined after her Caelin Adventures ended. (Also, they TOTALLY failed at keeping Caelin and she FLED the castle. I mean, it was for the best, it makes sense, but it's still kind of depressing.)(After her "story" she's sidelined to making fun of Hector and basically nothing else outside of supports. Like "Oh yeah I'm here. But what I say means nothing, actually." Some female characters in FE7 were done pretty well (Louise) but others came off as ehhh (Rebecca) or potentially really cool (Priscilla). I'm still torn on how to feel about Nino. The pegasus sisters are a giant pile of sad and I honestly, as an adult, have a hard time liking Florina because of how she's written. (I like her single ending the best, probably because sticking her with Hector smacks of her needing a man or something and yeah, let's put her with the loud obnoxious man who's twice her size!!!!!!!! IT'S CUTE!!!!!!! no I don't think so blah blah blah I have Feelings on that.)
FE8 was better in some ways but I felt let down with poor Eirika. Like, if I was going to novelize that story I'd write her so much better. (Fuckdammit I am conceited.)
That said, I like Lucina the most of all of the females in FE13. While I really like Cherche too, I think Gen1 characters in general were shoddily done and uhmmm Lucina is adorable. However, the way they just kind of HAHAHA ACTUALLY NOTHING SHE SAYS MATTERS is upsetting. But that's what fanfic is for? IDK.
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No, it makes perfect sense, but WHY do we do that? That's another symptom of the *internalized* double standard, IMO. We don't evaluate male and female characters in the same way.
One thing I keep coming back to mentally is my reaction when I found out what was driving Titania was (allegedly) her sekrit love for Greil. I felt disappointed. Why did I feel disappointed? Does that really "weaken" her? Is it "better" to have a Titania who's totally fulfilled by hanging out with a bunch of kids and whacking stuff with an axe? How would I feel with the genders reversed? If "weakness" becomes "romaaaantic" just by flopping the sexy-bits, something's gotta be wrong with the way I'm looking at these characters. Right?
We can say the whole Makalov thing is gross/"unhealthy" but she still makes her own choice there, which has to count for something.
Yeah. I've come to take that as a positive thing, really. I mean, I praise FE for showcasing trainwrecks like Abel/Est, so why not embrace Makalov/Astrid?
no I don't think so blah blah blah I have Feelings on that.
Heh. Yeah, me too.
That said, I like Lucina the most of all of the females in FE13
I love Lucina. I hate the way she is handled within the confines of the plot. It's not even like Eirika, with a potentially great character kneecapped by the story until they're not-great and you have to headcanon them up. She's a wonderful character and the plot keeps taking a crowbar to her kneecaps. :/
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By the way, no feminist criticism of Lucina is complete without the "Marth" Nindori comic. It's a plot point vaguely hinted at in the games, but the comic makes it explicit.
Comparatively, Lucina had a great deal of respect and background agency in The Future Past... though she still needs Daddy to save her. (At least she strikes the final blow?)
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You haven't translated that one yet, have you?
At least she strikes the final blow?
My reactions to Lucina's overall role still mostly default to "@#$%!!!" so I prefer to concentrate on pettier slights like the zeal with which FE13 pegs Eirika as a gullible tool for the ages.
Any other gender-issue feedback?
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I have thoughts about nice ways Tellius sticks up for women beyond the simple "look at all the nice main characters" thing, but I figured that was essentially another topic.
Also, I'm doing Marth's comic next. Might get it done in the next week. I've mentioned my issue with it, though: it makes it explicit that Marth won against Lon'qu because Lon'qu realized she was a woman and got distracted.
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To a certain extent the remakes rammed it home to me, but I find the gulf between FE3 and FE4 striking. Women are on such a pedestal in FE3. I believe it's possible for FE3!Marth to get through two wars without ever harming a woman. Whereas FE4 presents them at every level of the conflict, from rulers to mooks. That impressed me.
The difference there being that Greil didn't need no savin'. :P
Yeah, he definitely made out worse than Eyvel. No doubt because of his gender (:p) -- no need for the developers to play nice!
Y'know, I think I made the FE5/FE9 connection in the first place when contemplating gender-type issues. Something very much along the lines of, "Gee, of course it's the cool woman who gets shafted a couple of chapters in. Wouldn't it be cool if... wait. They did. I've played some of that game. Holy fuck, why has no one mentioned this before?" And then I started digging through the script.
I've mentioned my issue with it, though: it makes it explicit that Marth won against Lon'qu because Lon'qu realized she was a woman and got distracted.
I think I facepalmed then, and I sure didn't forget that. Unpleasant.
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I thoroughly expected her to have A Thing for Ashnard and was surprised to find she did not.
Series still needs more female antagonists, especially ones that don't fall into "evil hag mom" a la Sonia, arguably Hilda, et al."
Emelina from FE12 was a disappointment because she was basically another victim. Not just another "evil mom," but an evil mom who wasn't in control of herself (unlike Hilda).
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Outside of Tellius I think it's quite possible that every single female antagonist is some combination of slutty, deceived, vain, and shit-mom.
Meanwhile, Tellius gives you Ashera, Catalina1, and Petrine.
Though it's unfortunate that Ashera is technically kind of a shit-mom, and the above is an exhaustive list. FE still has yet to incorporate female antagonists significantly at the middle level. The forgettable chapter bosses are by and large male.
1 Technically misguided, but no more misguided than Lekain et al.
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I guess it depends on where you draw the line in terms of what an "antagonist" is-- particularly given that "vain" is an attribute of FE villains in general. Lemme see, there's Gharnef, and Michalis, and Arvis, and Trabant, and Kempf a tier down, and Narcien, and Valter, and...
I mean, I don't know where cases like Pamela/Deet'var and that Falcoknight chick from FE6 (Sigune?) fall on the slutty/deceived spectrum, but I don't see "vain" as quite the same distinctly feminine strike against them as slutty and shit-mom.
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And now that you point out Deety and the rest I realize that there's a handful of female midbosses... but they're all on Pegasi.
Are there any minor bosses who are women and not an explicitly female class? Jeez, even the major ones are so often female classes: Valkyrie for Ursula and Selena, for example. And the other examples I can think of are magic-users as well.
Btw, a point for Kyusil's post: I think Echidna is the first and still one of the only female characters whose principal weapon is the axe. (The other being Titania.)
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Lamia the swordmaster chick in FE4 chapter 4, Klein/Kuraine in FE12.
I had high hopes for some FE11 gaiden-chapter bosses but IIRC they were all dudes with female names.
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Cline isn't exactly minor... she gets a fair amount of screentime in the evil orphanage subplot. Still, good for her for using a bow.
And hats off to FE4 for the actual female forgettable side boss. (Though IIRC she was so side that she never even had a portrait?)
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actually wearing blue lipstick in Ilia could be a pretty badass fashion statement... like, yeah, I'm freezing, what of it?Re: vanity, I never saw it as a distinctly feminine trait. Off the top of my head I can come up with more male characters (not necessarily antagonists) that I would classify as "vain" over female characters. I always thought of it as being about being in love with yourself, whereas arrogance is more of an overestimation of your abilities, if that makes sense?
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I "vanity" has a definite connotation of narcissism to it, but I think it's worth noting that the bosses depicted as specifically narcissistic get painted with some sub-masculine qualities-- floofy hair or fastidious manners or a sense that they're not quite "real" men. Kempf vs Raydrik, Narcien vs Murdock, Valter vs Caellach. The preening narcissist is the less conventionally masculine antagonist in each of those cases.
And Caellach is most definitely one arrogant bastard.
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Yeah, the in the DLC I played I didn't see Sigurd's entire career arc of dumb coming in for criticism.
I did get DLC!Leif praising Sigurd as a great hero though. :/
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I definitely feel that most female fans (including me as well) judge female characters more harshly than male characters. The situations you've described in that vein, like questioning Eyvel and Titania's roles, seem almost tame when compared to some of the uglier ways that can manifest. I'm sure we've all seen female fans unduly lashing out against female characters perceived as too weak or too abrasive, while conveniently giving male characters in similar roles a free pass. :| I've tried to get into the habit of examining exactly why I feel as I do when I find myself put off by a female character, and I think it's helped improve my perspective a lot (not that I don't have failings at times too). Sometimes just asking myself "but how would I feel if this character was a man?" and going from there can be really helpful.
Since you remarked on tumblr that you were thinking of picking up FE9 again because of this: I think FE10 does an overall better job in this regard. FE9 still does much better than most FE games, but Micaiah doesn't come into play at all until FE10, and characters like Elincia and Sanaki are (in my opinion) way more interesting in FE10. (Although Titania, since you mentioned her, is probably more interesting in FE9, but just because of relative screentime. Same with Jill, since Manna brought her up.) Plus FE10 is the only FE game with a female final boss!
Also, since Lucina has been discussed a lot in the comments... Sort of like what Ammie said, one point I will give FE13 is that I think it did a good job showing that Lucina's peers (the other children, that is) have a lot of respect for her, and this comes through very strongly in supports and in the various DLC. I found the way the other kids speak to Lucina to be a big step up from the way Lyn and Eirika's respective contemporaries treat them, for instance. Unfortunately the rest of the game (especially the plot, sigh) doesn't really follow suit. :|
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Well, or there's a sense that the "strong female" has to be a perfect female-- never be wrong (but be modest), never waver under pressure, and so on. I didn't necessarily like the way Hermione was characterized in the last couple of HP books, but the way some fans reacted when she went through her immature phase in HP6-- AFTER we'd already been treated to snitty Ron in HP4 and CAPSLOCK!Harry in HP5-- was nuts. But yeah, asking how'd you react if Hermione were Herman is generally a good starting point.
Since you remarked on tumblr that you were thinking of picking up FE9 again because of this: I think FE10 does an overall better job in this regard.
I agree wrt to interesting women, but I think I may've dismissed FE9 a little unfairly because at that time I barely knew the Jugdral games and didn't understand the full scope of the reference points that Tellius is drawing upon. And if they weren't drawing on Jugdral more than anything else-- for skills, classes, plot points, skeevy tacticians, you name it-- imma eat Joshua's hat.
[Makalov is totally inspired by Matthis though.]
I might still be bored to tears by FE9, though.
Plus FE10 is the only FE game with a female final boss!
Aw. Idoun counts.
I found the way the other kids speak to Lucina to be a big step up from the way Lyn and Eirika's respective contemporaries treat them, for instance.
Yeah, I didn't see anyone trying to pressure Lucina into taking naps. :/
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I actually don't know the specific examples you gave (other than an inattentive viewing of the first movie that I barely remember anyway, I've somehow managed to never read and/or watch HP), but I think I know the kind of mindset you're talking about. It's sort of like when you said "it's not like their male counterparts don't have problems." Sometimes it feels like female characters are only "allowed" to be flawed in very particular ways, and anything outside of that means they should be automatically and completely dismissed as bad... even though male characters are rarely held to such a high standard.
I agree that Tellius draws a lot from Judgral, especially now that I've played 4/5. Now that you mention it, I kind of wonder if I'd feel differently about too, it in light of that. If you do pick FE9 up again and find it too dull, you could always skip it and go straight to FE10? :-P (Even beyond interesting women, I think FE10 is a better game in nearly every respect.)
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"Sometimes it feels like female characters are only "allowed" to be flawed in very particular ways, and anything outside of that means they should be automatically and completely dismissed as bad... even though male characters are rarely held to such a high standard."
Yeah, pretty much. The counterargument to that, though, is that since maleness is still the "default" in many, many genres, any female written in an non-traditional role or setting is carrying a greater burden as a represenation of her gender that holding her depiction to a higher standard is warranted.
You know the drill there-- if you write a film about a white male heterosexual US president (Catholic or Protestant), his flaws don't necessarily reflect on all white straight male Christians. Richard Nixon can have a drunken breakdown in the White House and be consoled by Henry Kissinger (trufax) and that just says something about Nixon. If a hypothetical President Michelle Obama or President Tammy Baldwin breaks down in tears and needs consolation from their Secretary of State, that's going to be interpreted as Saying Something about all black women or all lesbians or just about female presidents, full stop. So maybe a scriptwriter would leave out the President's drunken calls to her SoS in the inevitable biopic.
At the ending to Zero Dark Thirty, the female protagonist (Maya) looks in the body bag and confirms the corpse is Osama bin Laden's. According to the Navy SEALs on that mission, the actual female CIA agent who directed them was curled up in tears when they came back with the corpse. That would've put a hell of a different spin on the character of Maya if she'd been bawling in the fetal position during the final reel. Since I didn't much like Maya one way or another I don't entirely know if that was a good artistic decision or not.
Then again, WHY didn't I like Maya? I'm still struggling with that question.
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Okay that's an exaggeration, but FE9!Elincia is really only barely a step up from Nyna/Guinevere. Her moment of awesome is FE10. And it is exceptionally awesome.
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However, I can also find some points where I will admit that the outrage is justified. I myself was annoyed when it turned out that Videl's Ultimate in DBZ Budokai 3 is just having Gohan come out of nowhere to save her
.
Lucina needs her own game.
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"I mean, in Gaiden, sure Alm had to rescue Celica, but Celica also had to rescue Alm as well at a different point (I think)."
She definitely lent him remote assistance by giving him his promotion, which is great.
But a female being rescued by a male is in keeping with stereotypical expectations and gender roles. A male being rescued by a female is not. So I can completely see why people are irked by one and fine with the other, because one is in keeping with entrenched gender expectations and the other one runs against those expectations.
It'd be nice if we didn't have to apply double standards to appreciating fiction but some of those double standards are very entrenched in the societies where a lot of us live. The USA just now allowed women in actual combat roles. The idea that women need to be kept out of peril still runs pretty damn deep. FE does at least allow a fair amount of equal opportunity rescuing-- Celica assisting Alm, Eirika bailing out Innes, and so on.
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I generally take the opinion that Fire Emblem does a good job with its female cast since there are so many women characters, which is nice. Of course within that grouping some of the female characters can be less than stellar, but…yeah.
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" Where one female fan may say a character fails her personal opinion on what makes a “strong female character”™ I may find the same character to be refreshing and realistic."
I agree with you to a point. I mean, take one recent female FE character-- Sully. I've found her a likable and realistic depiction of the kind of female who succeeds in a predominantly male role, foul mouth and all. My experience, as a woman in a male-dominated profession, is that the Sullys of the world are real, necessary, and break down doors for other women to walk through with a more delicate gait. Other female fans have disagreed with me there.
On the other hand, when dealing with marginalized groups, "refreshing" and "realistic" necessarily aren't the same thing. Let's cite something TV and film often gets wrong: mental illness. Say you have a new TV show on HBO or whatever whose protagonist is a big-city mayor with, say, bipolar disorder. This might result in gripping Sopranos-style television, and viewers whose concepts of mental illness are molded by (oops) other films and TV shows are fine with it. If might also be incredibly offensive to people with bipolar disorder AND their families AND mental health professionals, who look at what's onscreen and say, "Great, another show reinforcing the stigma that mental illness goes along with episodes of violence. BOYCOTT."
I mean, some people found Ally McBeal refreshing. :/
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Nico and I agree on this one.
I would add that this makes me think of how female characters are handled differently in different franchises in the same genre. I might have to ponder that in a post (because my first thought was that the main male in the first Langrisser spends several chapters getting bailed out by more capable female companions).
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I had also wondered why FE7 seemed to have taken a step back, with its female cast on the whole being more delicate and traditional (and the men likewise tending to treat them as such), but thinking about it in terms of the series' theme of new generations succeeding where their predecessors failed, it makes more sense. Even just looking at the (male) protagonists: you've got chivalrous Eliwood, who seems compelled to offer his protection to every woman he meets-- not disrespectfully, but because that's presumably how he's been taught. With Roy, it just isn't an issue. Take his recruitment convo with Lilina, for example-- his primary love interest, whom he swore to protect earlier, and who Eliwood, naturally, told to stay out of danger. Anyway, Roy gives her a tome to defend herself with, and that's it. No "are you sure you're okay to fight?" or "stay behind me!" or anything like that (IIRC, the only recruitment convo along those lines is Ellen's, and that's the second chapter; suffice to say, he learns). This change isn't arbitrary, either: after all, it was Cecilia-- the character who's arguably the most aware of sexism in all its forms-- who taught them during a highly formative period of their lives. So yeah, of course the prequel is going to seem more old-fashioned when all the evidence from FE6 indicates that things in Elibe are changing pretty rapidly.
Since I don't know, is this sort of thing evident in the other two-generation universes? Some of the comments seemed to sort of indicate that this was true for Ylisse, but what about Jugdral?
More generally, I've also caught myself being overly analytical of the motives/development/etc. of female characters over males. Sometimes, like Ammie brought up in her gendered tropes meta, it's understandable, as the combination of certain traits is often trite with one gender and refreshing with the other. But I guess I'm getting tired of the idea(s) that a female character loses Feminist Points by taking advice from a dude or failing at something or caring about her kid or, idk, crying. Then again, women who are TOO perfect, strong, etc. get the Mary Sue card thrown their way, so I guess there really is no winning when everyone's a critic. Which shouldn't be news, I guess. The important thing that IMO FE essentially gets right is to include a wide variety of female characters, so there isn't one single representative for womankind that everything is riding on, plus you get more opportunity to create interesting characters and dynamics that way.
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Wow. I guess I don't feel bad about defending FE4 anymore.
and I still can't decide whether Zealot becoming king of Ilia is actually progressive or not.
Yeah.
So yeah, of course the prequel is going to seem more old-fashioned when all the evidence from FE6 indicates that things in Elibe are changing pretty rapidly.
That's a nice explanation for meta, but I really don't give IS that much credit, especially when they go ahead and invent an irrelevant character like Lyn in FE7, and then handle Eirika with kid gloves in FE8, and then insert all these lovely moments of sexist bullshit in FE13... not to mention the tremendous step back in female empowerment between FE1 and FE3. They're all over the place, with no clear progression IMO. '
but what about Jugdral?
No. If anything, Gen 2 was worse off, because all the inheritance for everything defaults to the male child. The only way women end up ruling anything, even if they have major holy blood (and their brothers don't), is if their male relations are a) dead or b) inherit something better. Tinny inherits Freege *if* Arthur gets something else. Patty inherits her mother's lands only IF her brother gets a separate inheritance from their father. And Julia, heiress of the great god-powers of Naga, hangs around assisting Lord Emperor Seliph. So you end up going from a few female rulers to potentially zero.
All that and the Amazing Disappearing Linoan.
The important thing that IMO FE essentially gets right is to include a wide variety of female characters, so there isn't one single representative for womankind that everything is riding on,
Very true.
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That's a nice explanation for meta, but I really don't give IS that much credit
Well, it was an observation based on the universe of those two games. I imagine it would be an easier conclusion to come to working backwards than working forwards: having the characters in the prequel act in ways that would read to audiences as more old-fashioned would emphasize further that the story is taking place earlier in time. I guess FE6 happened to have enough progression world-wise that it works out pretty smoothly. I'd be curious to know how much of FE13's specific moments of sexism are lodged in its first generation as opposed to its second: of course, the argument could be made that the bad timeline forced Gen 2 to view each other on more even footing, but at that point I feel like we start slipping away from author intent, if that's the lens we're interested in viewing this issue from.
And I suppose the angle does make a big difference when we're talking about this issue. You could look at how women are characterized, whether they're given new roles, how the other characters treat them. You could look at the sort of impact they have on the plot and whether they're active or passive. You could look at character design. You could even just fast forward to the ending of the story and look at inheritance and who ends up with what, like your analysis of Jugdral's Gen 2. I'm not sure one aspect is head-and-shoulders above the others, as it all comes to the average player in one package, and they'll take their own experiences to the table as well.
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No, in context I don't think the way Eyvel gets treated is specifically a way of negating a strong female character while the guys all get the spotlight. I think it's a waste of one of the best female characters in the series but she gets the same treatment as FE6 Hector'n'Eliwood, not to mention Greil.
Of course, she got stuffed in the basement FIRST, so it wasn't a franchise hallmark then.
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FE5 is interesting in that the game indicates repeatedly that Leif is something of a marionette and he's consistently overshadowed by the more awesome off-screen presence of Seliph. But yeah, FE8 did the ensemble cast thing very well. I think it's been re-evaluated to a certain extent; judging from opinions on the non-LJ/DW side of fandom there's not such a consensus on anything anymore.
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I'm not finished with 10 but it seems to me like Secondary Characters Having Plot Agency: The Game so far. I would argue that that one has at least as much of an ensemble cast as FE8, even if Ike is still the main hero. Eirika and Ephraim have the same sort of outstanding role as any other lord, don't they? Their only distinction is that they're, well, two people, but dramatically they seem to me to be two sides of the same coin (ie. their primary function being to uncover Lyon's story and save the day). I agree that FE8 does the ensemble cast thing the best, but at the end of the day you're still gonna have the spotlight shining on your main hero(es).
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Yes, that's really sketchy, but the part where Finn leaves Ronan, Halvan, and Orsin to rot in jail is pretty sketchy too.
Whereas threats of "I'm gonna abduct you and make you my wife" like Elliot does to Raquesis-- that's definitely specifically revolving around her status as a female.
ETA: and the horrible way Miranda's treated is all about her being female.
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And on this subject, I still wondered why Midia need to be put in a distressed situation twice, at the same place
EDIT: Or the way Finn acted around Safy, which is frankly pretty confusing
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Shiva certainly appears to get the wrong idea there!
Yeah, "recruiting" Misha is really dodgy but again, it doesn't feel exactly like she's getting kidnapped rather than recruited by some honorable means because she's female. Whereas with Miranda, the disrespect she gets shown and especially the way Leif treats her at the end-- "Naw, not interested in getting married right now (oh hai, Nanna)"-- combined with the way her right to the throne of Alster explicitly does not matter because she's not a boy feel pretty dirty.
As for Midia, one failed rebellion is kind of cool. Two failed rebellions and being basically useless in Book II was cheap.
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