Regarding Seth

[mark_asphodel]

I wasn't going to touch this subject, but damned if it doesn't keep coming up in different forms of media.

I like Seth as a unit and as a character.  Like him a lot, in an "I can potentially identify with this guy kind of way."  And from the beginning, I kind of connected him with Cain in the way that Cain's shown in FE3, where he's not Red Cav anymore but is instead a trusted senior knight/advisor, a right-hand-man, the guy Marth leaves in charge of Altea when Marth goes off chasing trouble.  [Orson is the Abel to Seth's Cain, with even worse results than Abel saw in FE3.]

But I stopped writing and exploring him and basically just left him alone for a while, because... reasons.  The things I liked about Seth, and found interesting about him, didn't seem to be the reasons that fandom overall was interested in him, plus I caught a general sense that Seth was overemphasized into a "semi-protagonist"[*]-- placed above his station, so to speak.  And, since I liked Seth but didn't LOVE him, it wasn't worth the grief.  I could just write about Cain or some other character that filled that same niche to me.

Part of it is, I think, the essential difference in the knight/Lord dynamic between Eirika's Route and Ephraim's.  Eirika/Seth is a problematic pairing to me, but I really dig the interaction between reckless Ephraim and cool-headed Seth... and not in a sexual way (no thanks).

Japanese FE fandom had a very useful tip on understanding Seth, knight of Renais.  Ammie helped translate it (and much else) for me.  

"Don't make Seth into a pussy like Oscar."

I'll tell you, it was nice to see my own impressions of Seth being bolstered by J!fandom.  Let's give a rundown as to why Seth is awesome, as listed by our counterparts across the ocean:

He's not a yes-man.
He knows when to be harsh.
He's a realist.
He's analytical.

I like analytical, realist characters with functioning brains.  And the harshness-- or severity-- is kinda icky when it's used against Eirika, his potential romantic interest... but seems entirely fitting when he's acting as a foil to Ephraim.  And I think that the romantic trappings that Seth is given as the fabled Silver Knight unintentionally mask that part of him in fanfic.  He stops being the kind of guy who can say a line like this to his lord:  "They're not cheering for you.  They're cheering because Orson's misrule is at an end."

And he was, in light of the beta version, supposed to be even more harsh.  He's assertive enough in his role as Eirika's "protector" that Eirika makes him back off from interrogating Saleh.  Sure, he's really sweet with Franz and, uh, cajoles Natasha away from her calling.  But if you want your paladins sweet and squishy, well... Geoffrey's your best bet.

Speaking of Geoffrey... as I said above, I mentally connected Seth to the older, more responsible version of Cain.  I didn't see J!fen make that comparison, though I probably wasn't looking hard enough (c'mon-- red hair, Biblical name...).  What I did find were comparisons to Geoffrey (naturally) and to Finn (technically not a paladin, but the same "type" of character).  And what distinguishes Seth from those two would appear to be that fundamentally rational base to his character-- not emotion-driven, not faith-based.

[He's also more mature and "together" than Geoffrey and better-socialized than Finn, IMO, though Geoffrey has the potential excuse of being younger than Seth.]

Also, he's not a pussy.  Sorry, Oscar.

Seth: great unit, great character, but it's probably best not to sand the edges of his character just to get him impossibly shiny.  The edges are what make Seth who and what he is.  :) 

* Term that Google translate spit out during one of my dives into J!fandom (not regarding Seth) that seemed to me a fairly helpful term to distinguish your Caedas and Sothes from the actual main character of the game while setting them apart from the rest of the cast.  Basically, if there's ever an FE8 spinoff that's along the lines of "Eirika and Seth's Awesome Zombie-Killing Adventures," then it's cricket to put Seth up there on a pedestal as Very Important, second only to the twins themselves.  Otherwise... no, not really.  Not with Innes and L'Arachel and the other plot-essential characters running around.

Comments

[amielleon]

I feel the need to clarify, "Don't make Seth a pussy like Oscar" was my (M-rated) 4Kids take on it. :P I feel like there's an idiom there I don't understand, amounting to that sentiment, but probably not that strongly.

That said, Geoffrey's role at Elincia's side is practically reversed from Seth and Eirika. Elincia orders her army to rescue Geoffrey. Geoffrey thinks they should negotiate to save [spoiler] while Elincia stands firm by her practical decision. I love that reversal of roles.

[lyndis]

Oh good. If you write Seth meta, then I never have to! I knew waiting it out would be a great thing. >:]

That said, I think I agree with you completely...unless there are things you haven't mentioned here that I don't know about. I keep thinking I need to attempt /my/ version of Seth but I don't think I've quite picked him out enough to write while still doing a good job.

That said:

Seth was overemphasized into a "semi-protagonist"

I think the reason this happens is because at the VERY start of the game, he did kind of share the spotlight, the same way Mark/Kent/Sain share the spotlight at the very very beginning of FE7...but then fade clear to the back along with Lyndis by the end of the game. But going with that, I do feel that Seth's opinion, while probably valued enough-- and certainly as a famous sort of dude in Renais, his opinion is wanted at some points-- his opinion is not necessarily one placing him right there above his station every waking moment, telling everyone else what to do and when to do it, etc and so on. The spotlight tends to focus on him a little bit too much, even when there are other people it should be focusing on (in fic).

I think the harshness and severity make sense, though. Seth isn't making stupid excuses or saying dumb things to say dumb things. Most of what he says makes sense, he really is saying and doing (or trying to say and do!) the right thing, even if it does come off harsh. It's like, you can say something and it be the truth-- and it might hurt whether the comment was aimed at you to be specifically hurtful or not.

But sadly in 'fics where he's paired off, people make that whole Individualism Loss mistake where the character(s) involved lose so much of themselves they're not recognizable as an individual anymore. Admitted something ~sort of~ like that happens in HP with Tonks but that aside (because it can make some semblance of sense in the end at least while other cases can't), Seth tends to turn into this White Knight with sparkling armor and a Crest Smile, like some kind of Disney hero or something. He's always got a great body, amazing muscles, Eirika admires those things about him, but nothing is REALLY said about why they care about each other-- and the same can go for Natasha/Seth as well imo-- or any pairing.

If the characters are:

a.) not recognizable as themselves even within a relationship with someone else
b.) nobody can tell why the characters in a relationship are even IN a relationship

then...what's being written is boring and dull. Because it doesn't make sense. Etc etc blahblah I'll take my elitism elsewhere at this point. :P

Anyway re: pussy Oscar, I really think the difference here is Oscar is a laid back sort of guy, and Geoffrey is more of a take-charge type but he stays properly in his place even in fanfiction it seems, whereas Seth is actually not a laid back sort of guy, but he ends up in more of a Geoffrey-like position-- or way above his station-- in fiction...which seems very...off somehow, like they're balancing a lot of things but none of it actually works.

Seth holds a lot of esteem, I'll give him that. But he's not Geoffrey/Oscar/etc and so trying to write what is essentially another character with Seth's name is just...not something that's gonna work.

[raphiael]

Considering how much is out there on this side about Seth, it is pretty sad that the less-shiny bits are so under-explored. It's the part I like too.

I think there's no doubt he's an important support to both twins, especially since he can't actually die and all and is pretty present in the first chapters. But I think billing him as more important than characters like the other royals is, well, just as shortsighted as claiming Lyn's the main character of FE7. I just don't think he's so important that either twin absolutely needs him the way, say, Elincia needs Geoffrey for a few chapters in RD, or Micaiah needs Sothe, or even things like Marth needing Caeda (despite the lack of game over there). Especially since they can each carry on just fine without him in the other twin's route.

Personally, I feel like there's almost a set of tiers for the protagonists - you've got the twins, and then you've got the characters who stay important throughout the story (Innes, Seth, Saleh, L'Arachel, Myrrh, et al), and then you've got the people who pop in briefly and never really matter outside supports and stuff again. There are similar structures in other games, but I think it really stands out in FE8.

[raphiael]

On the position thing - I think you're definitely right. To me, what often gets me is that Seth's first and foremost duty gets forgotten. He's not loyal to the twins personally, the way Kyle and Forde are attached to Ephraim, or characters like the Delbrays are to Elincia or Percival is to Mildain in FE6. His loyalty is to Renais, and whoever its rightful monarch happens to be. I think losing sight of that is often what leads to him turning into that squishy Disney prince you mention. It's core to his character, and once you misfire on stuff that important, it's really easy to get into that "same name, different guy" and not even notice it.

[samuraiter]

I think I need to write Seth at length in order to sort my feelings about him. Hmm.

[mark_asphodel]

There are similar structures in other games, but I think it really stands out in FE8.

I think that's a great point, and it backs up the sense that FE8 has the tightest, best-constructed cast. If you had to give each of them a salary, it would be easy to work out the payscale.

[mark_asphodel]

His loyalty is to Renais, and whoever its rightful monarch happens to be

Yeah.

I think that's a critical distinction, and one that's definitely obscured. Making him Eirika-obsessed, or positioning him to be the Eirika counterpoint to Kyle's role as Ephraim's pom-pom carrier, misses his baseline characterization by a mile.

[mark_asphodel]

I knew waiting it out would be a great thing

HAH.

Seth tends to turn into this White Knight with sparkling armor and a Crest Smile, like some kind of Disney hero or something.

Wow. I hadn't thought of it in that sense, but... yes. Yes.

He probably does have a pretty nice bod, though...

whereas Seth is actually not a laid back sort of guy

I think that's a really interesting way of putting it. Especially wrt: Geoffrey.

Seth holds a lot of esteem, I'll give him that

In Renais? Oh yes. Internationally? He's known, for certain. But to see him placed above say, the Frelian royals (who are supplying the bulk of the army!) is pretty aggravating, in 'fic.

[lyndis]

Yeah, Disney!Prince!Seth. You'll never forget it, now. >:3 I bet he does have a nice body though, you're right. >_> All that training has to pay off amirite or amirite.

I think re: Geoffrey, that Geoffrey is not an overly assertive person. He's assertive but he has nervous energy if that makes sense? Like his pacing in-game. He's not super laid-back, but he's not super assertive, either. So he's more of a middleground type of guy IMO.

And yeah, I agree 110% on him being all HAY I HAVE ADVICE LISTEN and characters like Tana and Innes and others are like OH YEAH LET'S HEAR IT BRO. When he's not THAT important. I wish royalty would snub him in fic just oneeee time. It'd be so great. But he talks out of turn and it's okay...because it's Fire Emblem I guess. :P Seems to me like lots of knight characters do that.

[raphiael]

He does get shot down in the game, actually. On Eirika's route, once Innes comes in, I can't think of any time off the top of my head when Innes' word doesn't supercede Seth's. So while he's kind of disrespectful to Eirika at times, the rank thing is eventually acknowledged. At least, in game. Fandom, that's another story entirely.

[mark_asphodel]

He's assertive but he has nervous energy if that makes sense?

Oh, yeah. That comes through.

I wish royalty would snub him in fic just oneeee time. It'd be so great.

If it's been done, it was probably Innes, and I'm sure Innes paid dearly for it by the end of the 'fic. ;P

Seems to me like lots of knight characters do that.

Yes. Well, it's a fine line to tread between "deference to royalty" and "making sure they don't kill themselves"... especially when the Lord characters in question are basically kids (younger Marth, Roy, Leaf). I don't count Eirika and Ephraim as kids, though, for reasons I've gone into before. And while some of the knight characters might tread the line, the canon Tacticians are usually blowing past that line without looking back, which is another reason saintly perfect FE7 tacticians annoy me.