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mark_asphodel) wrote2011-09-27 06:44 pm
- fe11,
- fe3,
- fe4,
- fe6,
- fe7,
- fe8,
- fe9,
- fire emblem,
- meta,
- september is meta month
Meta Month, Day 27: Marriage, arranged and otherwise
Jugdral: I'll let a confirmed Jugdral buff cover this one, but whatever the evidence for arranged marriage, the overall tide of love-based relationships indicates that even nobles can and do marry who they want... at least under the extraordinary circumstances of wartime. Eltoshan’s marriage to his queen wasn’t a love match in one of the manga adaptations, but that's what happens when your genuine love interest is your half-sister. Well, some of the time...
Archanea: First off, a word about child marriage. They don't seem to care for it. Even the very young characters who get romantically involved in War of Shadows (Est, Caeda) don't actually get married until a couple of years later. Adulthood appears to begin at age sixteen/seventeen and even then there seems to be an asterisk of sorts for a few years more; while the world feels more than a little Greco-Roman, the practice of marrying off girls in the twelve-to-fifteen age bracket does not appear to be happening.
We know next to nothing about the parents of most of the playable cast-- the nature of the marriages of the kings and queens of the archipelago, and in some cases even their names, are a mystery. We do know that the heiresses of the kingdom of Archanea are subject to arranged marriages, but that's the very top of the social hierarchy. The DS reboots provide evidence that arranged marriages may indeed be common practice for nobles-- Jeorge and Midia, heirs to two great estates, were supposed to be married, and Marth's reluctance to tell Caeda his feelings at the end of FE11 appears to be rooted in the idea that just up and proposing to the heiress of Talys is out of line in some fashion. Either he doesn’t think he has leeway to make the decision (and he doesn’t-- Nyna makes it for him) or maybe Talys is still considered too much an upstart kingdom.
[War has a great way of shaking up these social norms.]
The behavior of two other kings indicates something a bit more sinister is equally common: Michalis decides on his own bride, the beautiful and noble Lena, and her only out is running to the other end of the continent. There appears to be something equally dodgy in the backstory of King Jiol and the mother of his daughter Sheema-- not so much an arranged marriage as "I want, I take." Yikes.
If marriage between nobles in Archanea is loveless on a regular basis, either because both parties were compelled by a contract or one party was essentially coerced, it raises questions about what the other norms are with regard to divorce, infidelity, and the rights of out-of-wedlock children. On the last count, Fire Emblem worlds in general seem pretty easygoing about legitimacy as long as someone's parentage is not disputed. As far as infidelity goes... well, I've mentioned Archanea has both brothels and a slave trade. Dunno about courtesans or kept women, but men who don't love their wives have many options.
I suspect women who don't love their husbands have rather few options. Archanea is IMO the least woman-friendly of the Fire Emblem worlds. A place like Macedon, where women are a major part of the military force, might be an exception... but, then again, Lena and Michalis. I dunno.]
All of this makes Hardin's meltdown on finding that Nyna didn't love him to be even more irrational; I'm sure any surviving representatives of the Archanean and Aurelian nobility have a pretty dim view of the whole thing. I also suspect that the remnants of the Old Regime will not be pleased to have another foreign overlord who is exceptionally fond of his wife-- it may well be taken as a sign of weakness. The "great" King Cartas, after all, doesn't appear to have been set back much by the loss of Artemis. If anything gives the impression that the place of a royal or noble lady in Archanea is to be married off against her will, put in her place, and used as a breeder until she drops, it's that story.
Valencia: Both nobles and commoners seem to marry (or hook up) for love in the happy land of Valencia. It's worthwhile to note that Emperor Rudolf's plan involved Alm and Cellica actually being friends with and loving one another! Social mobility also seems to be a factor-- Claire, a knight from a respectable family, takes up with a village boy after the war.
Claire allegedly had her sights set on Alm, and on paper, that would be a very appropriate match: a union between a rebel leader-- the grandson of a famous general-- and a noted knight's sister. Alm was destined for even better things, though.]
On the other hand, King Rima IV of Sofia adhered to the "I want, I take" method of selecting a bride, going to far as to steal Cellica's mother, a priestess, out of a convent, and make her his wife by force.
Elibe: All I have to say about this one is, Desmond and Hellene. And Guinevere's mom. I'm intrigued by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
kyusil's suggestion that Roy's bizarre marriage options can be explained as some kind of political calculus on his part, though. Clearly, bringing home Ilian mercenaries and random dancers is not the norm for Lycian marquesses, but Eliwood and Hector do get away with it, and Roy can do likewise. But then you have the way Pent got to choose a bride out of twenty eligible candidates in over Etruria.
There is some degree of social mobility, though the characters who help foster it do seem to be eccentrics like Pent (who marries the unconventional Louise and raises Erk in status to the point where he in turn can marry blueblooded Priscilla) and types like Hector who... don’t much care. As in some of the other games, the foreground characters are the oddities, and the norms of their society overall may be different. Then again, the oddities are remaking society in their own image. Elibe fifty years after Roy's victory will be a different place than the land his grandfather knew.
Magvel: We don't know much of anything. Read what you want into the various paired endings. Intermarriage between citizens of Frelia and Renais, including Kyle's sister, seems common enough. We know L'Arachel's marriage to Ephraim causes turmoil in Rausten-- but she does it anyway. It appears that the future King of Frelia is permitted to shack up with a knight, who bears him a son, and everyone is fine with this. The twin heirs of Renais can be "together forever" and people are fine with this, too. And Joshua does whatever the hell he wants, up to and including Marisa. The idea of coerced arranged marriages just doesn't fit overall with the world we're shown in FE8. You can maybe interpret the Eirika/Innes ending as Eirika nobly going off to be Queen of Frelia for some higher purpose, but the idea that anyone's forcing her into a diplomatic marriage just doesn't really work, IMO.
Tellius: Y'all know better than I would. Astrid was running from marriage to Lekain, though, I do know that much. Sounds like Begnion’s finest are as lousy as the old guard of Archanean nobles.
In summary: the big-dog nations of the Fire Emblem ‘verses (ex: Archanea, Etruria, Begnion) would seem to be the places where an entrenched ruling class and arranged marriage come as something of a package deal. These places are also painted as pits of corruption in need of a housecleaning, just as some of the most prominent examples of arranged marriage in the franchise are some of the most epically catastrophic marriages: Hardin/Nyna or Desmond/Hellene, anyone? But, it’s all a matter of perspective-- just as the games have us taking the side of the “good” nobles and princesses fighting against whatever “evil” empire is currently in charge, we as players are supposed to be rooting for the often-improbable love matches, with the disastrous loveless marriages being presented as a counterpoint. We don’t see many successful arranged marriages (though Pent/Louise would qualify!) or many disastrous young lovers (Abel/Est, though...) to balance the picture, because that’s not the image the games are trying to put across. We’re on the side of the attractive, virtuous princes and marchionesses and their deserved happily-ever-afters, right? Not nasty old nobles and skeevy senators-- the hell with them and their entire way of doing things!
As I said in the part about Elibe, the unconventional forces are the ones who carry the day. They might end up remaking their continents from the family unit on up-- or, after a few generations, may just settle back into the ways of the ruling classes they decimated back in the war. Marriage-markets, trophy wives, brothels and all.
ETA: LJ's formatting is so jacked up these days...
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Astrid:
But there's no freedom!
My brothers are the pride of the house.
As soldiers, they lead glorious lives.
But my sisters are traded like commodities, promised to fiances they don't even know.
They don't know love.
I receive letters from them once every few years.
The pages are warped and stained from tears.
Astrid/Sothe A
(Can I say that I would have liked it a lot better if Astrid ran off to join the Dawn Brigade than if she went and shackled herself with a derelict alcoholic and gambler?)
Royals elsewhere (Micaiah and Elincia come to mind) seem to have the liberty of choosing who they want to marry, although the fact that their parents are dead might have to do something with it. And, while permitted, it does not keep nobility from turning their nose up at it.
Aristocrat: Yes, Lady Lucia! Please refrain from speaking if you have not been
directly addressed. Your familiarity with the queen does not grant you a
seat in the royal assembly. Although you may have been raised as a sister
to Her Majesty the queen, kindly remember your place!
Lucia: ...You have my apologies.
Aristocrat: And you, General Geoffrey. Does your loyalty to Her Majesty stem
only from your unchecked emotions? Those with a taste for gossip are
talking. I wonder, have you heard what the help is saying about you?
But apparently ongoing affairs...
Lucia (A support with Bastian)
First among the ministers to support her queen, Lucia never married. However, her affair with Count Bastian continues.
...are quite all right.
As for commoners, there does seem to be an element of ceremony to marriage:
Wayfaring Country Girl- Meg
Meg had an ordinary marriage in her village and had an ordinary family. Her house was always full of laughter.
Mist (A support with Boyd)
Mist acted on her feelings for Boyd, marrying him. She cried during the vows, much to Boyd's chagrin.
Though how much ceremony is anyone's guess. It might also be more of a beorc thing than a laguz thing:
Leanne (A support with Naesala)
Leanne was united with Naesala, whom she had always loved. Together they raised a heron girl and a raven boy.
And just packing up and running off with your beloved isn't a terribly uncommon way to communicate, it seems.
---
Regarding Jugdral: Hardly an expert, but the old dying King of the Heim bloodline was particularly ecstatic upon finding Diadora's Narga mark. And the philandering Lord of Velthomer drove many a plotline to its sad conclusion.
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I nearly pointed that out. I mean... Makalov? That's not even funny. :/
although the fact that their parents are dead might have to do something with it.
I think that has a lot to do with things overall. We have no idea what the parents of Marth or Nyna or Leaf or Eirika/Ephraim or countless other characters actually wanted, because hey, they're dead and their plans are inoperative.
And the philandering Lord of Velthomer drove many a plotline to its sad conclusion.
Jugdral is arguably the most "realistic" in some aspects, as in acknowledging that hey, adultery and broken marriages and bastard children all exist and it's not always the 100%EVIL characters involved in such.
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But you know what? I kind of like it. I had ideas to write about it, but it's a complicated thing to write about and it's something I'd rather not screw it up.
But I kind of chalk up Astrid's, uhh, decision in a romantic partner, there, to be her being rebellious. To an extent. :U But that's probably just me.
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Astrid
Oh, I hope to be as good a knight as Sir Makalov someday! How I dream of that day!
Makalov
Heh.
Marcia
I don't believe this.
Makalov
...You don't wanna end up like me, baby.
But Astrid with the DB would've been cooler.
Jugdral is arguably the most "realistic" in some aspects, as in acknowledging that hey, adultery and broken marriages and bastard children all exist and it's not always the 100%EVIL characters involved in such.
Jugdral had the best bastard children.
And the best shitty father.
Oh Levin.
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I agree that this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and helps prove that IS isn't intelligent...
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I just wish they founded that on incompatibility rather than a deeply flawed character and a particularly blind one.
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1: Game mechanics. Astrid is on a horse, and horses aren't easy to keep with a bunch of bandits sneaking around city alleys. They could make her a foot archer, but that would modify her character in a way that might be met with disapproval - not to mention, take away the only bow knight.
2: In most cases they sided with assuming some support or another in PoR. For example, the "Strategist" base convo seems to assume Ike/Soren A. It seems that they decided on Astrid/Makalov A. Probably because...
3: This way it's easier to establish Sothe/Micaiah. Also, it keeps an even level of player exposure to the Dawn Brigade. If Astrid were in the DB, it would make Leo, Ed, Nolan, etc seem even more underdeveloped.
But, while it might benefit the overall game, it certainly doesn't benefit Astrid and her independent streak. I want that AU.
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As far as marriage goes, I never really take what the game implies as an ending all that seriously, unless of course it makes sense to me. i.e., Eliwood bringing Fiora home would have its consequences in my book. Or rather, my take on things. The game says it works out, but at what cost? Well, that's why I write 'fic!
I think a lot of different types of marriages are feasible-- unconventional marriages (Eliwood/Fiora), marriages of convenience or security (Oswin/Serra), affairs (Bastian/Lucia), marriage for love (Geoffrey/Elincia), I-do-what-I-want marriages (Hector/all his choices), and so on and so forth. In fact, I can see most of the options happening in any given game! Which is kind of funny, but I look at it quite like the real world even today: even now there are arranged marriages going on, not so much a YOU HAVE TO MARRY THIS PERSON YOU HAVE NO CHOICE or, YOU HAVE BEEN BETROTHED SINCE BIRTH but even the, "Well, I don't have a choice, I haven't had an offer yet and it's either 1. be independent (and not all people have the urge to be this way as it might require a great deal of effort that might not be worth it, depending on the person), 2. be alone (though alone =/= independent and vice-versa), and/or 3. let my father/older relative find me a life-mate."
Now, Astrid seems to be the biggest example of "no choice" but I find it entirely odd that all her sisters are in arranged marriages and all send letters crumpled and stained with tears.
Arranged marriages aren't always terrible things, honestly, though they are in no way always fun and enjoyable, either. A lot of times, it is simple convenience on both sides, and sure, it might not be all that great to have sex with someone you don't even know or care about or anything like that, but if they are a good person and provide for you well and treat you with respect/whatever, then there are indeed worse fates to be had. My best guess, assuming Astrid is not lying or exaggerating, is to think that her sisters were engaged to men who were not so good, and possibly on purpose. But then again, the way she describes things makes it seem as though men > women, and so having a female child is kind of like a disappointment, as there is little they can do but be married off. (Assuming a dowry then, they could be bothersome to a family to have too many daughters.)
But then we have Lucia, and Titania, and Jill, who all server in the military and are women. So Astrid's claim that her brothers are all so awesome cause they can do that is kind of...hm. Because couldn't Astrid, too, be a soldier? Unless there's a law or something making it a. impossible, or b. very difficult and requiring parental consent to do it. P:
Anyway, in just Elibe I can see most of the examples of the types of marriages, so it's kinda like...interesting.
I mean, no matter what "world" you live in, people will marry for their own reasons. And whether those reasons are convenience or love or for money or fame or whatever? Are entirely up to the individual characters.
Sadly, fandom's views on the characters might conflict in this way (Serra would marry for convenience! Serra wouldn't do that! For an example.) but that's my, uhhh, outlook I guess. P:
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Which is kind of funny, but I look at it quite like the real world even today: even now there are arranged marriages going on
Indeed. Hell, one of my husband's best friends is a native of India. His wife, a very sweet lady, was selected for him by his parents. It took some getting used to for both of them (imagine getting to know your husband and a foreign country... at once), but they seem to be doing very well. I also have an acquaintance with a mail-order bride from Ukraine. They've lasted a few years now-- and she's a smart, articulate, educated woman, not a teenager sold off by her parents for the vodka money or anything like that.
And my parents had known one another for all of two weeks when they married, with the desire to move out of Army barracks and into couples housing being a STRONG factor. They're still together.
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That said, I agree that fandom has silly ideas about marriage and relationships in general. I've seen a lot of EWWWWWW ___year age gap, GROSS! When these same people express an interest in celebrities even older than the gap they just said was "gross".
I mean, if we were all marrying to satisfy people's desire to see us wed to someone our own age, then why bother marrying for any other reason? Oh hey, you're only ONE year older than me! YOU'LL DO JUST FINE. /end sarcasm
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Do eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. >8D
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Fiddler on the Roof! Love the old couple.
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There seems to be this trend where people seem to think that an arranged marriage is pretty much the worst fate you could ever have, but really, it's just like any relationship where you have to put actual effort to make it work. Granted, depending on the characters involved (hello, Nyna and Hardin!) there are going to be instances where there's no real Happily Ever After, but as a whole? It may be strange to hear from me, but arranged marriages aren't as terrible as people seem to think they are. :\
Basically, agreeing so hard that fandom has the silliest views on so many things related to marriage/romance/courtship/whatever. The shenanigan with age gap and intermarriages between family members is what gets me the most, though. Just. Ugh.
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People choose to marry people who are not good for them all the time. I think the defining conflict is "choice," though-- the idea of giving someone a choice, and especially giving a woman a choice, is so bound up to current Western ideas of freedom and personal rights that it's a pretty quick jump from "parents/grandma/matchmaker made the choice for you" to "OPPRESSION!!111" It's hard for a lot of people to get past the idea that making your own bad decisions is not necessarily superior to someone making a less-bad decision for you.
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There are certain feminist works that suggest exactly that it's okay as long as it's your own decision. To be fair I don't quite agree with The Book of O but it's out there.
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Analogy: in the US, the current prevailing model is to let one's elders live independently until they have to go into a group home or the hospital. It's often considered a sacrifice-- a great one-- to adult children to have to personally take care of one's parents. In other cultures, it's understood that the role of a child will be to one day care for one's aged parents.
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Dear self, pay attention to context.
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Jiol is just a pretty dodgy character over all. It's amazing Sheema turned out so awesome. (I bet she takes after her mother and not her father. At least that's what my headcanon tells me.)
Dunno about courtesans or kept women, but men who don't love their wives have many options.
Oh dammit now I want to write Catria/Marth/Caeda fic where Catria is his courtesan. And there are threesomes.
This is why I shouldn't take naps and then read my flist.
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But, fate being what it is, Jiol's plans totally backfired and Marth got everything anyway.
And there are threesomes.
Hah. I've been playing with something along those lines, but not in a straightforward sense. And without the threesomes.
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I think Shimizu Hitomi was the one who came up with "he snapped up some random lady to bear him a child" theory, but I believe this. He saw a woman who looked desirable enough, told her she was going to be his bride and since he was the fucking king she couldn't exactly say no. I definitely believe there was "I want, I take" but I can also see the woman thinking "well at least I'll be marrying into status". Possibly to ignore the fact that he was just snapping her up.
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Possibly to ignore the fact that he was just snapping her up.
Yeah. Certainly Cellica's mother wasn't comforted much by the king of Sofia snapping her up. I think he gets the Worst Lord[*] Parent award.
* Yeah, yeah, she's a priestess/princess. Whatevs.
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