Warning: Labels

[mark_asphodel]

May I say that I truly do not like the entire business of warning labels and trigger labels on fanfiction?

I get a basic rating system.  SFW/NSFW, not-pr0n vs pr0n, extreme graphic violence and various forms of torture.  That's a basic CYA mechanism for the community, too-- hide the pr0Nz from the thirteen-year-old readers.  Not that most of that really works, but we all play along.

Trigger warnings?  I'm sorry.  I really do not agree with this one.  I cannot and will not anticipate every single thing that could potentially set a reader off, and honestly that's not my problem.  Last I checked, actual books didn't carry ratings for that kind of thing.  Or magazines.  Or comic strips.  Movies and video games aren't rated to that level of detail.

"Warning: contains homosexual content-- like, a passing reference to a gay couple."

"Warning: contains parents belittling their children." (This is a trigger for a lot of people, including ME.  And to a lot of people, it's comedy gold.)

"Warning: contains a joke about someone jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge."

"Warning: features a human sucking face with a chick with cat ears."

A guy sexually abusing a cat?  Look, that already falls under NSFW and other really basic categories.  If the penis is out and erect then we are, in the words of a 1970s film producer for United Artists, "In the land of X."

And warning for pairings, especially canon pairings, is something that is, to me, deeply childish and stupid.  If your delicate sensibilities must be protected from any and all traces of a pairing you don't like, or one that breaks up your OTP: grow up.  A background reference to something you don't like won't hurt the characters and it doesn't hurt you.  I've read many, many stories with a background pairing that irked me, one where I felt a writer was pushing their personal agenda in an unrelated story, and my irked feelings still don't deserve to be cosseted by those authors.  That's MY problem, not their problem.  

Triggers are often subtle.  Triggers are entirely subjective.  The concept of what is and is not an unacceptable trigger evolves over time.  It's all very Justice Potter Stewart: I can't define what crosses the line for me, but I sure know it when I see it.  And you know it when you see it.  And guess what?  We may be 180 degrees apart on what "it" even is.

I mean, seriously-- Tom Sawyer would have to contain a warning for "suicidal ideation" under fandom standards.  Among other things.  Last I checked, that was still on kiddie-lit reading lists.  And don't even get me started on all the people who read Flowers in the Attic as a coming-of-age rite.  Or read Anne Rice novels that were basically Homoeroticism 101 disguised as explorations of immortality and the nature of evil.  Books on shelves, or on E-readers, do not coddle the reader.  Why is amateur online fiction expected to?

I do get warnings for kinks and squicks on the pr0n sites, because if the main point of reading is sexual gratification, then I'd rather not be jerked out of a story because someone's engaging in bloodplay or peeing on their partner.  That actually makes total sense to me, even if I am irked by having to break out labels that turn what I'd consider story development into a laundry list of kinks and squicks bereft of context.  It's one reason I don't post more on EFFN (sorry, Samu); appending sixteen different warning labels and categories pretty much ruins the surprise factor-- especially as there is something of a difference between a "first time" story someone is reading to satisfy a kink and a story that just so happens to have a character losing their virginity along the way.  Or a story aimed at pregnancy-fetish readers versus a story in which someone gets knocked up and it's not intended as kinky. 

TL;DR-- why is fandom being held to a higher standard of warning label than any real-world medium I can think of?

Comments

[amielleon]

I dislike warning for things for exactly the reason you say -- it ruins surprises.

I think some people use the phrase "trigger warnings" to describe the basic level of warnings that are generally used, eg "contains rape" or "contains sexual abuse" or something that is almost universally considered to be a delicate subject, in the same manner that a movie would be labeled "R for sexual content, tobacco, major violence" or something. The way trigger warning is sometimes used is dissociated from the actual combination of trigger + warning.

Then there's a small minority of people who actually do think readers should be warned about everything that could possibly upset them, and I disagree with that.

I also feel strange about labeling my story in detail, as you describe. Although it's not as clear of a dissonance as pregnancy fetish/pregnancy plot point, labeling things "yaoi" or "yuri" makes me feel odd as I've been long trained that those things refer to a certain kind of same-sex ship story -- but fe_contest clearly intends for it to mean same-sex sexual activity. (Not to mention, it was hard to decide if it did or didn't apply to TSSE, but that's another matter.)

[amielleon]

Oh, yes, one other thing I wanted to offhandedly mention.

There's very little in the way of warning for anything in published literature (censorship lists aside), but since FFN decided that fics should be rated according to a very movie-like system, it seems that most of the FFN generation has a more film-oriented mentality about warning for their fiction.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes. That's definitely true that we act more like the MPAA. But even their ratings don't go into the depth of "informed consent" that fanworks are apparently expected to provide, and I'm bloody sick of it.

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

But wouldn't the pairing be enough as a "warning"? I mean, if you have Ike/Soren in your pairing line, everybody should know that it will be slash. I don't believe you need to label it yaoi/slash/yuri at all.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

As far as FE Contest is concerned, I don't mind if people don't actually say "yaoi" or "yuri"...so long as the characters are labeled clearly, and so is the genre if that makes sense. Like CrimsonMorgan said, if the fic has Ike/Soren right there, it's pretty obvious it's yaoi.

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Hm, I'm very divided about trigger warnings. I do understand why people want and need them (I know I would feel bad should I hear that one of my stories triggered a panic attack.) However, they do have to be reasonable. Yes, you can't warn for every little thing. But where do you draw the line? I'm never sure if I should warn for a character death, for example (in a oneshot, not a long work where the tone of the story should make it clear enough that something like that could happen). But a oneshot that ends in death? I don't know. Or another example; I just published my bro story and I warned for the topic cheating. Mostly because personally I would kinda like to know that before reading (and the topic comes up almost instantly anyway so nothing is really spoiled). I need to be in the right mood to read something like that (I'm not triggered by it (I don't have triggers); it's more of a note for me as a reader). With topics that are so hard to rate, I believe, everyone has to decide on their own.

You don't have to warn for homosexuality. It's not on the same level as rape, murder and whatnot. It's not dangerous or damaging. If you (general you) warn for slash then you should warn for het as well otherwise you're an asshole. Though both is kinda stupid, really.

I agree about warning for pairings. Either put that in your Author notes or just add a "Pairing:" line.

Since I don't have triggers, I can only recite what other people said about trigger warnings for books; nowadays you can look for reviews on the internet or ask someone you know to check the book. You probably won't be able to make spontaneous buys but you can manage.

In the end it comes down to common courtesy, really. You can't force anyone to warn for anything. Though, if you make clear at the beginning how you warn (or if you don't warn at all), then I don't see any problems.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Here's how I see it: Trigger warnings for things like rape and graphic violence and other Big Things are a good idea. Trigger warning for passing mentions of homosexuality or a morbid sense of humor or pairings are ridiculous and people who insist upon others using them are just entitled. Especially when pairings are usually ALREADY mentioned in summaries (or FF.net filters), or when you write about a character who canonically has a morbid sense of humor, morbid jokes are a given.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Trigger warnings for things like rape and graphic violence and other Big Things are a good idea.

But that's where subjectivity kicks in. Depicting a rape is not IMO the same thing as referencing rape in a character's background. Depicting someone planning and carrying out a suicide is not the same thing as a character briefly fantasizing about jumping off a bridge, much less someone in the narrative saying "Go jump off a bridge." But to the people with those particular triggers, it often seems like there's no difference.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I'm another person somewhat divided on the trigger warnings issue.

But first:

And don't even get me started on all the people who read Flowers in the Attic as a coming-of-age rite.

LOLOLOLOL. I never read this, but I knew quite a few people who did... And all I can do is laugh. XDDDD

Anyway, some things should be warned for, I think: rape, abuse, self-harm, maybe even adultery since it's a really delicate subject for some. (Among other things.) And for smut, yeah, warning for some stuff would be worthwhile. (Because you then can easily attract the right audience, and avoid creeping other people out.)

Things that are major plot points that are delicate? Yeah, they could use a warning. And yeah, I'm mostly talking about good 'fics, not your average piece of crap from the Pit. Cause I wouldn't read that, anyway.

Stuff like murder and intrigue? I'm personally less concerned about. Probably because there is a lot less of a chance it's triggering than other things. Also, FE is basically a lot of murdering, and so are most games/anime/manga series, to be honest.

On the other hand, I didn't put trigger warnings in the summary or author notes of All About Us, either. And I probably should have. (But I never got that far.)

Anyway, IMO the summary of a story should be an accurate depiction of what we're getting into when we read.

And it's good to just use good judgment, anyway. I mean, would YOU want to be warned about something amazingly triggering? No? What about your close friends? Obviously you can't (and shouldn't have to) warn for everything under the sun. But there is a line drawn in there somewhere. Someone who gets overly offended and panics when they see something little mentioned or mentioned in passing in a fic needs to 1.) stop reading fic, seriously, and 2.) probably stop reading, period. Why the FUCK are these people ~on the internet~ where billions of very different minded people hang out and mingle? Seriously.

[amielleon]

... I've never heard of adultery being something warnable before. o_o

Incidentally,

Someone who gets overly offended and panics when they see something little mentioned ...

Er, I hope you're referring to the people who are like WARN FOR EVERYTHING and not the people who have this reaction privately when reading things. Because the latter often can't be helped.

Regarding this idea of "you should know what you're getting into", though... I wonder what you would think of the following situation?

A fic (which has warned for sex) starts out with a graphic sex scene. Only after reading that scene and then some do you find out that the participants were of the same gender.

In such a case, someone who wanted to avoid same-sex sex scenes (which I think is reasonable) would have had no warning whatsoever until after they've read the sex scene in question. You could say that choice is stripped from the reader. But because the fic is constructed that way, you could assume that it was the author's intent that you find out the gender of the characters only after the fact, and so it would damage the integrity of the story to warn for it as well.

What should one do?

[raphiael]

Honestly I kind of assumed it was the Thing To Do in fandom. Say what pairing it is, warn for just about everything, all that. But I'm also someone with a very specific set of things that upset me that I wouldn't want to read - and no one warns for them, and I'm 100% okay with just closing the window if I see it. So I've never really. . . gotten it, I guess.

But even with that I tend to err on the side of SLAP WARNINGS ON EVERYTHING. Having seen firsthand the reaction of some people when there's a little detail that bugs me - specifically the RAEG at the author, rather than their distress - I'd rather slap an "Oh ____ thinks about killing themselves in here" than deal with some reader shrieking at me via PM about how "triggered" they were by it.

I'm not saying people can't be upset by things like that - just that often the anger over lack of warnings is often really not worth dealing with.

Warning for pairings, though? Uhh outside of saying, idk, Marth/MyUnit in your summary so that people who really like that pairing will know what it's about right away, I don't think I've ever seen much fanfare for pairing warnings, outside of ZOMG YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID THIS WAS SLASH.

[seraphicdylan.livejournal.com]

It's... kind of a difficult thing. I mean... on one hand, I can see what you are saying but on a personal standpoint, I like to know what I am getting into.

I mean... Rape, incest, or casual sex can all fall under 'sexual content'. But... if I stopped reading everything that had a sexual content label, there'd be a lot I wouldn't be reading. It's too broad of a thing. I mean... typically with books and the like, I look up synopsis beforehand and rather than reading through the whole synopsis I typically look up keyword.

Like... me personally, graphic depictions of even consensual sex bother me. Whether they are tasteful or not doesn't matter, it's just a personal thing with me. But like... if there is a warning tag I can at least know that part will be there, will be more alert, and can skip it if it's a thing that really would bother me, but I want to read the rest.

I think this only for more extremes though. Implied sex at the same time doesn't bother me as long as it's not a character telling a graphic story about what happened. Then it's not really implied so much XD;;

Basically, I don't really see it as cheapening the experience or anything. Some people really are sensitive about things. When I write, if I find I'd be writing something that can offend someone, I will say it. I think the difference is that there are people who are either really personally offended or just really loud and annoying about being offended. I mean... even if I feel like something is bothering me, I usually won't tell someone that 'oh, your story offended me,' as long as it wasn't a thing like the author calling it PG-13 and following up with a violent account of a murder of a child.

[seraphicdylan.livejournal.com]

Then again... I don't know how ridiculous it is in the fandom, when I see the triggers mentioned, I thought you just meant something like...

Rape, or Incest, or Child Abuse/Murder being clearly shown, or something along those extremes

[samuraiter.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU. I was hoping I was not the only person who had this point of view. The whole 'triggering' thing makes me facepalm. I mean, I am terrified of baby dolls. (Seriously. I do not know why, but they touch some kind of absolute primal fear in me that makes me panic.) So what do I do? I avoid that aisle at Wal-Mart. I need no one telling me not to go there. Heaven forbid I use my own judgment, after all.

And I completely understand about the EFFN story code system. We would rather not have to have something like that, but it is actually a question of legal liability for the LLC, so ... we have to CYA things to the Nth degree.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Heaven forbid I use my own judgment, after all.

Bait-and-switch stories do piss me off. If I'm expecting a fluffy romance, and said fluffy romance is achieved through, say, copious use of date-rape drugs? Not gonna be happy. If something is rated T and belongs in the above-mentioned "Land of X" without any shadow of a doubt? Not gonna be happy.

But if a story presented in good faith happens to go somewhere I really, really don't like? Again, not the author's problem. Just mine.

We would rather not have to have something like that, but it is actually a question of legal liability for the LLC

I figured that was the case, but it's deeply unfortunate.

[kyusil.livejournal.com]

I'm relatively new to the fanfiction community and, as such, find myself confused with the whole trigger warning business. Fortunately I haven't been through any traumatic experiences that would put me on the "receiving end" of triggers, so to speak, but as someone who tends to think of story first, readers second, I'm probably going to sound insensitive here (which has apparently been my hobby as of late, so eh).

The main thing I'm sort of confused about is the fact that we're working with source material that is essentially about war and everything that comes with it. There are references to violence, murder, suicide, sex, rape, what have you. I don't see why writers working with this source material should have to warn about things that are dealt with in the same degree as the game's script (in which they're usually mentioned secondhand or implied). I'm kind of assuming that someone who is reading Fire Emblem fanfiction has played through one or more of the games without having been triggered, so why would I need to warn about dealing with issues to roughly the same degree as the game does? If the fic gets explicit, then warnings should be in order, though I think it would be responsible for the community to set standards for how to rate/when to warn for things. I'm still unsure how to rate action scenes based on their level of violence because I don't know how my threshold compares to the general public's. With a standard system in place writers will know how to approach certain elements and particularly sensitive readers will know at which point they're going to have to risk encountering certain material.

It's redundant to warn for the type of pairing you're featuring. Just state the pairing-- this can function as a "warning" (for lack of a better term) and a marker for fans of that pairing.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

but as someone who tends to think of story first, readers second, I'm probably going to sound insensitive here

Go for it. Let's treat each other like adults.

The main thing I'm sort of confused about is the fact that we're working with source material that is essentially about war and everything that comes with it.

Yes! The source material is not the Happy High School Spirit Club. Also, don't forget the incest and slavery.

though I think it would be responsible for the community to set standards for how to rate/when to warn for things.

Mm, but who does the "community" consist of, in this case? LJers? FFnet? The alleged fandom elite? The Silent Majority?

Just state the pairing-- this can function as a "warning" (for lack of a better term) and a marker for fans of that pairing.

That works for the main pairing, but having witnessed and encountered negative feedback over background pairs... well, my stance has pretty much evolved to, "If it's valid in the game, I'm not warning for it." Of course, Alvis/Diadora is valid in the game, and I can and will make arguments for Ephraim/Eirika and Celice/Yuria, so already we hit a roadblock.

[sailorvfan10.livejournal.com]

Mark, I love you.

See, when I post fics on my fic journal, I don't rate things, I go by warnings. If there's no warnings, it's probably no higher than PG-13. If there's a warning for something, then it gets tricky. But I warn for basic things, like graphic violence, rape, etc. Then it all gets fuzzy and then I wonder, "Do I warn for character death? What if I want it to be a surprise?" and so on.

If someone clicks on something and it turns out to not be their cuppa, they can easily backbutton out of it. It really isn't my job to be placing WARNING MAY CONTAIN XYZ all over everything. So I warn for the major stuff, maybe go into detail in the author's notes, and then throw it on out there.

Aside from major warnings (rape, graphic violence, etc.), I warn for kinks and anything that might be squicky. Sometimes a trigger can be a warning too. Sometimes the line is so blurred I don't know what the hell to label anything.

But yeah I've always wondered why we've had to label things like MIGHT HAVE CHARACTER DEATH or MIGHT HAVE FUZZY SLIPPERS or things like that. I mean geez imagine the warning labels some books would have? It'd need a second dust jacket just to fit them all...

in short I agree.

[amielleon]

Hang on, this may be a language difference, but didn't you state that you "only warns for triggers in her fanfiction" and advise others to do so?

[blankspectrum.livejournal.com]

I'm another one who's somewhat torn on the matter. I should mention that recently I had an incident where I myself got rather irked at an author in the FE section at FFN over a similar premise (you can read about it here (http://blacklacelily.livejournal.com/88932.html), if you want). I took the opposite stance and suggested that the author of this particular fic add a label to her story, but I felt like it was appropriate under the circumstances. I can explain more, if you want, but I don't want to start out by completely hijacking the subject. :-P

I do agree that fanfiction shouldn't really get special treatment as far as this goes, for the most part (like I said, I think the case above was a special circumstance that's not likely to happen often - hopefully, anyway). On FFN, for example, I think the basic ratings system should generally cover what needs to be covered as far as graphic material goes (and if you're not covered by the basic ratings system, your fic needs to go elsewhere). Warnings for things like specific pairings and slash/yaoi/yuri/whatever are just silly to me. On other archives, such as personal archives, for example, things are a little more unclear, I think. I think I would personally prefer a quick warning about the things you mention at the top (SFW/NSFW, not-pr0n vs pr0n, extreme graphic violence and various forms of torture), in some way or another, be it through rating or through written word. Anything beyond that is unnecessary to me.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I should mention that recently I had an incident where I myself got rather irked at an author in the FE section at FFN over a similar premise

I'd followed that one via Ammie's journal, and IMO that's a clear-cut case. That was not a T-rated story and the actions involved were simply NOT consensual. That's exactly the sort of thing that that most rudimentary rating system ought to flag.

[shimizu-hitomi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm pretty ambivalent too. I've flipflopped on the issue myself over the years a few times.

I'm all for warning if it's an "issue story" or a story that hinges on something questionable as a major plot point -- to a certain extent I feel that's just common courtesy in a fandom community, which a lot of people apparently do think of or want to think of as a safe space, and I mean if you're writing a rape story for H/C fluff or if you're attempting a serious examination of rape and that's the whole point of the story you might as well just say so outright instead of being annoyingly coy about it. But like you said, it's hard to figure out where to draw the line.

If it's something in the background though, or an organic part of the story, I definitely... dislike warnings. Character death warnings are just plain silly for example. And warning for pairings, yeah, lmao, though when it's not a huge plot point I do still like to include pairing labels but that's mostly because I don't think pairings are a big deal and like it or not, pairings play a huge factor in what fans decide to read. And sometimes I will state outright that I'm writing a "pairing" that I don't intend to be interpreted romantically, because sadly romance is the default interpretation of just about everything. (When I want people to read in spite of a weird pairing I don't label though, LOL.)

I think though that there probably ought to be a better way to indicate or hint at the overall tone of a story. Movie rating system's stupid because plenty of people misuse it, esp. on ff.net where a lot of younger writers automatically label everything as "PG-13" to give the impression of edginess or maturity or whatever even when it's... not really. I want to say that's the main difference between fandom and real-world mediums (i.e. that there's less deliberate misrepresentation of content irl) but on second thought, I'm not sure that's true.

I mean, I guess I mostly don't really care for specific warnings aside from the basic "violence/sexual content blahblah" type stuff, but I do like to have an idea of the kind of story it is before going in. It's a context thing for me. And that depends a whole lot on what I know of a writer's style/tastes, their skill at summary-writing, and maaaybe reviews if I bother looking. Which is the same way I handle reading material outside of fandom, really.

edit: wow weird typos XDDD

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

I mean if you're writing a rape story for H/C fluff or if you're attempting a serious examination of rape and that's the whole point of the story you might as well just say so outright instead of being annoyingly coy about it.

Yes, definitely.

Character death warnings are just plain silly for example.

Heh! In a war game fandom especially!

And sometimes I will state outright that I'm writing a "pairing" that I don't intend to be interpreted romantically, because sadly romance is the default interpretation of just about everything.

Yes-- this is also true, and also plays into my irritation with a lot of the pairing labels. Manna reviewed something of mine recently where she said she didn't find the (non-canon) pairing I'd warned for shippy at all. I labeled that one believing that someone, somewhere, would take their interaction as shippy and be annoyed about it-- irrational? Maybe. But it sure does happen.

It's a context thing for me. And that depends a whole lot on what I know of a writer's style/tastes, their skill at summary-writing, and maaaybe reviews if I bother looking.

And that's what makes this entire labeling system so damned difficult. So much of it is contextual!

[thenicochan.livejournal.com]

I always figured it was best to use a lump generalization, i.e: Dark themes if it covers suicide/murder/arson/jaywalking, what have you.

For example, if having Priscilla have a botched, graphic, suicide attempt is something I want to be a surprise in the fic I would just label it as "dark themes" beyond that, it's out of my hands. Perhaps it's cruel, but published literature operates in a similar way, and I hate always knowing exactly what's coming my way. (Character death is a big offender. I don't want to know 'x' is going to die. It takes the suspense away.)

In PWP sex fic it's fine though. If you're deliberately looking for sexy fics you def wanna know what's going on.

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Perhaps it's cruel, but published literature operates in a similar way, and I hate always knowing exactly what's coming my way. (Character death is a big offender. I don't want to know 'x' is going to die. It takes the suspense away.)

Dark themes. I kinda like that. And I agree 100% with you there.

If you're deliberately looking for sexy fics you def wanna know what's going on.

Yeah, I don't mind labels on PWP at all. The entire point is to get off on reading it!